【上海人谈】\'Shanghai\'

【也谈 “Shanghainese" 】 By: 一语湖边

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原帖： http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=146076
网络搜索主题： 上海，Very randomly:

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· Shanghai is always a topic. Very controversial, Shanghai People sometimes pay less attention to the city they live in, but the interest grows as they get out of the town.

· This is often seen when you travel to the places like Venice in Italy, or to remote town small and quite as “Wu-zhen” - 乌镇 in the southern part of China, you tell immediately whose are coming from outsides from those generation dwellers from  the quietest smiles in their faces looking at the outlanders curiously.

· Quite interesting, “Shanghai” has been a topic of many works. Told in Numerous movies, fictions, and so on. An lee’s movie -“Lust, caution” – 色戒 , could serve no argues another most recent example. Why ？ It is become an interest so peculiar for people from everywhere.

· That the People in Hong Kong or Taiwan have special interests in Shanghai is very obvious. We may feel that from the movies they made in recent years. From earliest “shanghai-bund” 上海滩， to latest “Lust, caution” – 色戒 .

· Truly enough, a big topic, -shanghai started some 200 years ago from a small fishing village to now has a lot to unfold. · Or is there any one specialized in digging into the history or studying the city-development of  a sort? Surely it could cost some time to find out….

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【也谈，上海人：“shanghainese"】 "nish or nese" By: 一语湖边
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也谈， “shanghainese" 我的汉字输入有点问题，原谅我用英语.

上海国际化了,应运而出的是”SHANGHAINESE “ 这个称谓的出现 .
Basically, I did not see anything wrong with that. When we define a word is properly used or not, should we consider situations where the word or the term is used. If we are in the discussion in the sence of the of language .

“在上海时,我听到娇滴滴的上海女子在酒店里对几个东方面孔的男人介绍自己说,”I’M SHANGHAINESE”. 我真的有点儿迷惑. 在感请上, 我没法把’SHANGHAINESE’ 和上海人等同起来.我认为 最自然不过的一句话是上海人对自己的同胞说”我是上海人”，而对老外说 “I’m Chinese． ”

Here is a question: first, in daily conversation, there are many nationalities or people outside with oriental faces: Japanese, Korean, or Honkongnese. suppose you re among them and try to make clear what is your local language or try to give more information of you back ground you would naturally added where you’re from. From this point hardly could we see any thing unsuitable.

“但是鲜有上海人直接了当地对自己的同胞说”我是上海人”, 既使他们说完后也要补充一句, 其实他们父母不是上海本地人. 可是,当无比可爱的上海美眉躲在英文里娇媚而自豪地说I’M SHANGHAINESE”的时候,却好像没有一点需要说明的解释，反而让人觉得是上海人要飞出CHINESE 的圈子, 而直接飞向”SHANGHAINESE”,目标是和 TAIWANESE, HONKONESE, JAPENESE看齐, 而把其他的Chinese 甩在身后. 我不能不承认上海人的优越, 这和所有北京人,NEWYORKER, CHICAGOREN 的优越感是等同的,大城市有着得天独厚的地理环境, 令人咋舌的商业中心, 前卫时尚的流行精品,巨大而风格独特的博物馆,物价昂贵的名街名宅, 更有要人, 巨星, 富商云集, 为城市锦上添花.”

Same as Hongkongnese, Cantonese, Taiwanese, it comes with the languages exposure to the outside world. it is known that China is such huge country with many local languages; there are cases when people in real conversation to be more specific as to let the listeners know where she or he is from instead of just saying "Chinese". It goes along with more exposure of Chinese people and China as a whole. I always say I am “shanghainese” to make clear I am not Cantonese as my westerners friends thought, and to give my languages preference is not Cantonese but Mandarin, or shanghainese as native. Then added I am “Chinese-Canadian” to tell I am Chinese as my nationality.

“但是 , 一个地域再优秀 , 也不可能摆脱它的民族和隶属国 , AFTER ALL, A SHANGHAINESE IS STILL A CHINESE, 我猜是不是有一天 , 当一个 NEWYORKER 到中国旅行 , 对老中们说 “ 我是 纽约人 ”, 而我们又可以分辩出他的纽约口音时 , 那么 SHANGHAINESE 才可以百般骄傲于这个词语的发明 . ”

Secondly, I have heard people in Canada or American saying they are "Torontonian" or 'New Yorker' too, to people who knows little about the area or find hard to tell the difference from their accents. It is quite natural to be a bit specific. It is as simple as to say I am Canadian. but lived in Toronto. So from some people, "Chinese" "Canadian" or "American" is more or less to mean their nationalities only. Surely when they are mixed only with other Westerners and meeting people of other ethics they will mention the country where they belong to as to tell the true nationalities are.

其实 , SHANGHAINESE 这个词本身听起来真的酷极了 . 只是用起来 , 却有那么一点不伦不类 . 因为 , 上海人不用对老中说 , “ 我是 SHANGHAINESE,” , 而对老外应该 说 ”I’M CHINESE”. 我想巴 , 想巴 , 这个词最大的用处 , 是在和殖民地的香港人 , 或是以英语为母语的东南亚同胞交流中可以说 . “I’M SHANGHAINESE”, 既能体现上海和他们相近的西化程度 , 又可不露痕迹地掩饰说 ” 我是上海人 ” 的一点尴尬 , SHANGHAINESE 显然已经厌倦了作为 ” 上海人 ” ，而 TRY TO GET OUT OF IT. 于是 SHANGHAINESE 便在自以为是的在洋涇浜小资们中间流行了起来 .

So, allow me to quote: " 上海人不用对老中说 , “ 我是 SHANGHAINESE,” , 而对老外应该 说 ”I’M CHINESE”. Let’s figure out this way: when you meet some westerners, amidst some 3-4 Chinese, they know you are all 'Chinese" for sure. Then it is better, to say 'Shanghainese" or "Hongkongnese"or "Taiwanese" rather than only "Chinese", which tells your nationality but not clear about the local languages. Unless there is no such word at all, or the city is too small to say, "I am Shu_Zhou_ese" as an example?

However, it is noted the word  “Shanghainese” might be still not acceptable in some dictionaries. And one more thing the "-nese" itself is also within the language discussion too, if we noticed. Here, as some one asked why  "Spanish' is not called 'Spanese' or 'Japanese' but why not "Japanish', or 'Chinese" but not to be called "Chinarian" "Chin-nish" just a example of language curiosity, or whatsoever? It is truly another interesting 'why" or to name it deference of "nish and nese" to dig into?

One more thing: there is huge sub-cultural difference among locations and cities in China, owning to the immobility of Chinese citizens in the past and to the lacking of  the public transportation and communications . But now, the vital thing for Chinese is to go beyond our 

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, or be not too fussy about where we come from. Unless one had personal problems with the people form the varied locations. That is why I guess people are calling for a mindset of more internationally oriented

Post for personal interest, Thursday, March 27, 2008

约翰雷客霄 Burlington, Ca.
Contact: [e-mail] (China) [e-mail]( International )

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附： 高手专题Blog链接:
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Reference:

1. 【也谈，上海人： “ Shanghainese" 】 By: 一语湖边 [ 品茶小轩 ] - 一语湖边 _lakeshore(4927 bytes ) (19 reads)2008-03-26 http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=146076

2. 对 “SHANGHAINESE” 和 ” 上海人 ” 的一点困惑 [ 品茶小轩 ] - 风清月白 (1647 bytes ) (143 reads)2008-03-24 http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=145701

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附 02 ： 主题搜索：清单见下：

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