(RoneTempest是《洛杉矶时报》驻北京记者。在派驻中国之前,他是该报驻印度记者,在印度呆了三年。今年8月,RoneTempest在《洛杉矶时报》上发表长文,How China Beat India in Race for Success,对比中国和印度的发展道路,并从西方的观点就中、印两国经过五十年“竞争”后出现的不同结果进行了仔细分析。文中有许多值得注意的观点,特别是一些印度学者对中国发展情况的看法更引人注目。)
五十年前的这个星期,印度次大陆挣脱了英国的殖民枷锁,组成了印度和巴基斯坦两个国家。印度选择了民主的道路。
Everyone bangs on about how diverse India is, ethnic, religious, linguistic groups, hence its problems of governance. But China is even more diverse not only in terms of ethnic groups but also climate zones, geography, regional histories. Strong central government, attention to infrastructure, education, control of population increase, constraining religion(s), these are elements of success. Many Chinese health and quality of life indicators now rival the US (which, alas, isn't saying much because terrible governance, radical income inequality, racism, pockets of extreme poverty and unemployment have shredded the post-1975 American fabric).
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JCThunderbolt Senile 16 Sep 2014 11:48
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"Strong central government, attention to infrastructure, education, control of population increase, constraining religion(s), these are elements of success"
Aren't some of these 'successes' strikingly similar to the removal of peoples freedoms and human rights?
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djdjango Senile 16 Sep 2014 11:56
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"Strong central government, attention to infrastructure, education, control of population increase, constraining religion(s), these are elements of success."
Hmmm, presumably you're one of those who thinks Mussolini doesn't get enough credit for his Train time-tabling.
If you think income inequality and racism is bad in the US I suggest you wouldn't like Tibet much.
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hazh Senile 16 Sep 2014 16:52
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Strong central government, attention to infrastructure, education, control of population increase, constraining religion(s), these are elements of success
While some of these may be good (and some not so), none of these are responsible for China's success. China is successful because it abandon socialism starting 1978 with its Open Door Policy (it is now communist in name only). You only need to look at the numbers in Chinese economy before and after 1978. India stuck with socialism until it liberalized its economic policy in 1990s.
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Snashonator Senile 17 Sep 2014 0:21
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With my qualification of being half-Chinese, I'm pretty sure China ain't nearly as diverse as India racially and religiously. You're correct about the geography though, it is cray.
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steady2 hazh 17 Sep 2014 0:41
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...China is successful because it abandon socialism starting 1978 with its Open Door Policy (it is now communist in name only)...
China's success is however not shared among the population, like all good capitalist countries it seems. Although living standards have improved for at least 90% of the people since the 70's (that is a guess) there remains an appalling gap between the rich and the rest. Some claim that economic growth in China shows the superiority of capitalism but I suggest that the socialist conditions that China lived under until the reforms created the conditions for the economic boom.
The Chinese Government from 1949 through to the late 70's developed infrastructure including transport, electricity, water and gas. Education and health services created a comparatively healthy and skilled labour force and this combined with comparatively low wages and tame-cat trade unions was the great attraction to the foreign investors who have provided the capital for China's growth.
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hazh steady2 17 Sep 2014 6:55
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I suggest that the socialist conditions that China lived under until the reforms created the conditions for the economic boom.
No. China suffered badly in its socialist years, not least during The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution periods. Poorly thought-out economic policies during the Great Leap Forward is said to have caused the death of tens of million people.
What China did since 1978 is basically doing what overseas Chinese did (Hong Kong in its colonial period, Taiwan, Singapore, and they are essentially mercantile and capitalist in nature). China got overseas Chinese to help by setting up special economic zones (located close to Hong Kong and Taiwan) in 1978.
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steady2 hazh 17 Sep 2014 8:16
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China suffered badly in its socialist years...
In comparison with its previous 150 years there was peace and relative prosperity. As I stated previously during the years 1949-78 the infrastructure of modern China was built, with a nation that was utterly broke in 1949 and had suffered three civil wars and the Japanese invasion (1931-45).
The building of thousands of hospitals and medical clinics, the training of Doctors and Nurses and the eradication of disease had resulted in the average life increasing by more than twenty years by 1970. The building of thousands of schools, colleges and universities had lifted the literacy rate from a paltry 14% in 1949 to more than 75% by the mid-1970's.
Economic development and transport occurred also with the addition of thousands of kilometres of railroads, roads and highways. All this occurred in spite of the terrible catastrophes of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.
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hazh steady2 17 Sep 2014 8:39
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None of this is specific to mainland China. People in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore in fact all had higher standard of living, better education, infrastructure and health care than mainland China in the 1970s. Taiwan then was authoritarian but largely capitalist, Hong Kong was a British colony, and Singapore was already independent but was also a former British colony and in many ways their governance was a continuation from colonial times. They have different governments, but all were significantly better off than mainland China in the 1970s (and they are still better now).
The idea that socialist China did something extra special that contributed to their current success is complete nonsense. It didn't do anything more than overseas Chinese communities, in fact, it did quite a lot worse.
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steady2 hazh 17 Sep 2014 16:47
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None of this is specific to mainland China...
What are we discussing?
People in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore in fact all had higher standard of living, better education, infrastructure and health care than mainland China in the 1970s...
During the 1930/40s the former Chinese Government under the KMT received billions in military and monetary aid from the United States, most of the dollars were pocketed by Nationalist bureaucrats and Army Generals. In 1949 losing the Civil War the remnants of their army and about 800,000 civilians fled the mainland to Taiwan taking with them 250 billion USD in gold bullion - the entire Chinese national treasury reserve, in addition they took all their own money and anything of gold or other value that could be ripped out of Beijing and Nanjing. If you visited the Forbidden City in the 1980/90s you would find inside the buildings there was little left, the Chinese Government have since tried to replace the stolen artifacts with copies, the originals are in Taiwan.
From 1949 the Republic of China (Taiwan) continued to sit on the UN Security Council representing all of China and was a close ally of the US, who in turn continued to provide massive aid in military and monetary kind. It is no wonder Taiwan with 20 million people could reach a high standard of living by the 1970's.
On the mainland the communists inherited a country which was broke and broken. Three civil wars and the Japanese invasion which cost the lives of more than 30 million people. Infrastructure which made India, at the time, seem a first world country. A starving, illiterate population of 550 million peasants, with a massive area of land for the most part bereft of railroads, highways, electricity, gas or other infrastructure, and having suffered wars and invasions its meagre infrastructure was already in tatters. From 1950 the US imposed economic sanctions on China refusing to trade and demanding that its allies and 'friends' also shun China.
From 1950 to 1960 the former USSR provided trade and loans to China until such assistance was cut-off in 1961, during the 60's China paid the Soviets back their loans in spite of the appalling poverty China was faced with.
Conversely Singapore with a population of less than 2 million on independence and consisting of one city at a major strategic junction in Asia with a great port was faced with nothing of the type of difficulties that faced mainland China. Hong Kong was not a country but a British colony with all the assistance and investment that a major World power could provide to develop its infrastructure and economy during the period 1950-80s. With a tiny land area and a population of @4 million in 1970 there could be no comparison with the difficulties facing mainland China.
The idea that socialist China did something extra special that contributed to their current success is complete nonsense.
It is more than an idea it is a fact as I stated earlier producing statistical evidence of the improvement of health and literacy. Their is a mountain of data relating to the development of rail and roads which I have already alluded to. The Chinese industrial revolution which began in 1978 and is continuing is based on the Chinese miracle began in 1949.
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hazh steady2 17 Sep 2014 20:15
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Good god, I think you are reaching there. Billions of military aid from the US? In the 1930? 1940? Do you know what billions means in the 1930s? You do know that US was involved in the Second World Wars and actually don't have that much to splash around? I looked into it and see that actually in 1939 US gave $25 million in aid to China, in 1940 $20 million (tiny compared to the $250 million aid they gave to Soviet Union). Given what I have find out, I'm really doubtful about the figures you bandied about.
Hong Kong and Singapore has extremely little natural resources (little in Taiwan as well), while China has plenty of natural resources. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore achieved a lot largely through their own resourcefulness, I don't even know why you think the British colonial master was a benevolent sugar daddy who splashed out money on Hong Kong and Singapore. Your dismissal of their success through their own hard work is almost offensive. As if achieving success is so easy, look around the world and you see fucked-up countries with better resources elsewhere.
Given that much of the credit to China's present day success was down a large part to overseas Chinese helping China facilitating the difficult transition from an insular backward socialist economy to an economic powerhouse in the early years of economic liberalization, I'd say your attempt to diminish the achievement of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore is distateful.
China truly messed up their own economy themselves through the Great Leap Forward. The attempt to paint them as having achieved a great deal when their people suffered badly is truly absurd. If you want to argue that the difference in size make these countries no comparable, you only have to look at the differences between North and South Korea to see how big a difference a country's economic policy and ideology make to the prosperity of these countries.
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steady2 hazh 17 Sep 2014 21:47
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Do you know what billions means in the 1930s?...
I was translating the money from that period into its modern equivalent allowing for inflation. For example the $25 million in 1939 would be worth more than $400 million today, hence it is certainly true that the Chiang regime received billions in the years 1938 to 1949 and continued to receive throughout the cold war period.
I'd say your attempt to diminish the achievement of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore is distateful...
Rubbish. I did not diminish their achievement. I simply stated the facts since you were determined to compare their development with Mainland China during the same period to support your argument.
Given that much of the credit to China's present day success was down a large part to overseas Chinese...
It is not 'given' your appeal to probability will not replace argument based on facts.
The attempt to paint them as having achieved a great deal when their people suffered badly is truly absurd.
This is another attempt to appeal to probability. 'Since the GLF was a disaster and many people died ergo there could not have been the development that is claimed.' However as I stated that in spite of the disasters of the GLF and the Cultural Revolution China made enormous progress. As an example in spite of the deaths of as many as 30 million during the great famine 1959-61 China's population skyrocketed from 500 million in 1949 to 800 million in 1970.
I have already provided data in relation to the phenomenal achievements in life expectancy and literacy, furthermore China's economy tripled in size from 1949 to 1976, in spite of the country's lack of infrastructure and the trade embargo imposed by the US.
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hazh steady2 18 Sep 2014 7:56
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I was translating the money from that period into its modern equivalent allowing for inflation
Well, I suspect that there is a lot of unsaid adjustments in what you wrote. For example I remember reading that the amount of gold reserve taken to Taiwan was considerably lower than the 250 billion USD you quoted even after adjusting for inflation, so without a clear idea how you come up with the number, I'd take what you said with a pinch of salt.
furthermore China's economy tripled in size from 1949 to 1976,
I don't know why you would consider this impressive, especially when you realize that 1949 is the end of a couple of decades of costly wars (the Sino-Japanese wars and the civil war between the Communist and KMT) and China would be at the bottom in terms of economic development at that time, doesn't take much to recover to a better economic figure. Other countries have far more impressive performance. If you use roughly the same time scale and compare this to China after economic liberalization in 1978, Chinese economy had probably increased by 20-30 times, the difference compared to 1949-1976 is staggering.
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steady2 hazh 18 Sep 2014 16:52
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...I'd take what you said with a pinch of salt.
That is convenient for your argument. The difference between us is that I provide evidence to support my contention however you make simple unsubstantiated statements which seem to support a bias.
If you use roughly the same time scale and compare this to China after economic liberalization in 1978, Chinese economy had probably increased by 20-30 times..
Cherry picking, did you not read my previous posts? It is as if everything exists in a state on its own with no environmental factors to consider, and no matter what other evidence is provided Chicken Little persists with "The sky is falling, the sky is falling"!
As I have stated previously in 1949 China was broke and broken, no gold reserves, unable to borrow, trade embargo imposed by the US and aside from an underdeveloped third world nation it had suffered three civil wars and the Japanese invasion over the preceding 40 years. In spite of this the Chinese Government was able to rebuild its tiny infrastructure and then develop a mass transportation system of roads, highways and railways, in spite of its poverty and the absurd and destructive Mao-inspired programs of the GLF and the CR. China was able to build hospitals and schools improving health, extending life expectancy and creating the single most impressive improvement in literacy in human history. By 1978 the conditions were suitable and attractive for foreign investors which led to the extraordinary economic growth over the last 30 years. Without one there could not be the other.
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hazh steady2 18 Sep 2014 18:50
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That is convenient for your argument. The difference between us is that I provide evidence to support my contention
What evidence? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence of your claim of $250 billion worth of gold taken to Taiwan. You are making assertion that I have no idea if true or not. I have to search for this and this is one site that mentioned that amount of gold taken (it also mentioned what the gold was used for) -
http://therealasset.co.uk/nationalist-china-gold/
Apparently the amount is disputed (3-5 million taels), but you can calculate how much that was/is worth if you want.
Here they calculated that the gold is worth less than the aid given by US biannually after 1950 -
http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2008/08/myth-of-chinese-gold-in-economic.html
Whether you believe that site or not is up to you, but your figure of 250 billion is so far off that I doubt you could be right either even if they are not. I would therefore consider your numbers to be suspect.