同意楼主的观点,这也是美国南方政府拆掉李将军(Gen. Robert E. Lee)等塑像的原因,南方政府对拆掉塑像做过解释,和楼主说的一样,而非某些华人所说的美国拆掉李将军等塑像,是在搞“文化大革命”。
大赞好文!
祝楼主周末愉快!
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : In Texas v. White, The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that the succession of Texas in 1861 was ILLEGAL. The Constitution regarding succession was the same in 1861 and 1869. I agree that there are people who argue that the Supreme Court ruling was wrong. That's their opinion. What I said was that the Supreme Court ruled it was illegal for south to unilaterally succeed. If you don't agree with the Supreme Court, please go and argue with them. Why is such a simple logic so difficult for you to understand?
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : constitution is constitution, before and after war. supreme Court is only interpretjng the constitution.
sufficient 发表评论于
回复 '不言有罪' 的评论 :
A historical background that you should also know in regarding to state's right to succeed. During ratification of the constitution by the constituent states in 1788, New York, Virginia and Rhode Island refused to ratify the constitution unless they were allowed to reserve the right to succeed from the union. Compromises were reached so that constitution would not have provision for the nullification of the succession right. Since all states in the continental compact were presumed equal in legal status, it was therefore assumed by most, if not all, that the right to succeed from the Union by individual state was permitted by the constitution until the 1869 Texas ruling 4 year after the end of civil war. A side note, the 1869 ruling on succession right proved to be an embarrassing irony for US foreign policies when US is now persistently preaching to other countries of their local people's right for self determination while itself was against it domestically.
sufficient 发表评论于
回复 '不言有罪' 的评论 :
By the way, use your common sense, The principle that people should be free from retroactive law has its roots in another principle: that there is no crime or punishment except in accordance with law.
sufficient 发表评论于
回复 '不言有罪' 的评论 :
I guess you are unfamiliar with US legal system. I am not going to give you a lecture on the non retrospection of law. I just want to cite you this passage:
Legality:
The principle of legality is the legal ideal that requires all law to be clear, ascertainable and non-retrospective. It requires decision makers to resolve disputes by applying legal rules that have been declared beforehand, and not to alter the legal situation retrospectively by discretionary departures from established law.
No crime can be committed, nor punishment imposed without a pre-existing penal law, nulla poena sine lege. This principle is accepted as just and upheld by the penal codes of constitutional states, including virtually all modern democracies.
in conclusion, tt the time of the Civil War it was not illegal as the ruling by Supreme Court came later in 1869 (after the war) that unilateral secession was unconstitutional.
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : Just one quote on this topic from the internet:
"I think there's been some confusion about the word "illegal". It commonly refers to an act that is punishable under criminal law, but the question regarding unilateral secession is whether it's authorized by the Constitution. We commonly refer to unconstitutional actions as "illegal"; perhaps that's insufficiently precise.
I'd say the real question here is whether unilateral secession is permitted by the Constitution. Given that question, the principal of nulla poena sine lege is irrelevant, since it's not a matter of a criminal law for which violators may be punished.
For example, there is no punishment specified for passing a law that restricts free speech, but any such law is invalid.
Texas V. White clearly expressed the Supreme Court's opinion that unilateral secession was illegal in 1861, when Texas attempted to secede. There is no ambiguity in the Court's ruling. There are valid arguments that the Court's ruling was incorrect, but any such arguments should start with an acknowledgement of what the ruling actually said."
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : oh sure. All murderers must be tried before the murder, not afterwards.
sufficient 发表评论于
回复 '不言有罪' 的评论 :
you mean that court ruling in 1869? I hope that you do realize that in US law is not supposed to and cannot be retroactive. I fail to comprehend your reference to 1869 court ruling has any bearing on legality of events in civil war.
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : Then what was the Texas vs White ruling about?
sufficient 发表评论于
"ust tell me, was the succession ruled to be legal or illegal by the Supreme Court.?"
It had never been a supreme court ruling on the constitutionality of state right for succession. However, the initial US constitution implied state's right to succeed. If the supreme court were to rule prior to civil war, it would most likely rule in favor of succession right.
"If you want to discuss state rights vs constitution"
your question is oxymoron. State's right is a important part of the constitution of the United States.
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : where is the ruling you mentioned by the Supreme Court?
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : just tell me, was the succession ruled to be legal or illegal by the Supreme Court.? A very simple question. No need for you to teach others to go to library as I don't use libraries. If you want to discuss state rights vs constitution, then go ahead and write an article on it.
sufficient 发表评论于
不言有罪 发表评论于 2017-08-18 21:28:10
"I just said that the succession by south was ruled by Supreme Court to be illegal. Wasn't this true? What's wrong with this statement?"
When did supreme court ever rule that succession by the southern states was unconstitutional? On the contrary, according to the US constitution of 1861, the state's right to succeed from union was constitutional.
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : believe me, I am also frustrated with trying to understand what you want to say. It seems that you are saying Lincoln waged the war unconstitutionally. But did I ever talk about Lincoln in my article? I just said that the succession by south was ruled by Supreme Court to be illegal. Wasn't this true? What's wrong with this statement?
sufficient 发表评论于
不言有罪 发表评论于 2017-08-18 20:09:35
Huh? How did I make your point? It seems that you have completely failed to comprehend my point. We are talking in complete different wavelength here. I suggest you o take a trip to the library to learn a little on the history of American constitution and state's right.
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : You just stated my point: If the Supreme Court of USA ruled that according to the Constitution, the succession was illegal, then it was and is illegal. Period. Was there a prior ruling before the war from Supreme Court that the succession was legal?
sufficient 发表评论于
不言有罪 发表评论于 2017-08-18 18:47:10
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : so the Supreme Court was wrong?
It is funny that you see things this way. Too put it short, constitutionally, supreme court has the final word on interpretation of law, therefore its ruling cannot be wrong legally. Of course, you can slap a moral, social or political judgement on its rulings. In those sense, you can say that it was wrong or right. Would you say that Lincoln, who waged war against the south unconstitutionally, was wrong? Constitutionally, he might be, But, with consideration of national interest of the united States, he was right.
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'Sam大树' 的评论 : 去之前,不要吝啬多用些漂白粉,至少戴四个小红帽,也许管用。
Sam大树 发表评论于
华人以为3K党是朋友的,去参加人家活动看看,然后再说爱不爱。
不言有罪 发表评论于
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : so the Supreme Court was wrong?
不言有罪 发表评论于 2017-08-18 14:01:03
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : Yes, Sir or Madam. Judgement is always issued afterwards, isn't it?
I guess you miss the point. you had stated that "这脱离,美国最高法院的判定是,违法的。", implying that succession was unconstitutional at the time of civil war. That is not historically correct statement. Supreme court had never ruled on the constitutionality of the succession at the time of the civil war. If it were to rule, it would most likely rule in favor of the state's right to succeed from the Union. Lincolin's war on the succeeding states was in legal sense unconstitutional. With that said, it does not mean that Lincoln was not doing the right thing as a president for his perceived country, the Union. Most legal scholars today agree that from legal perspective the constitution of United States at the time of civil war implied state's right to succeed from the union. Even today, there is no clause in the constitution explicitly prohibiting state's right to to succeed from the Union. However, the subsequent amendments particularly those rectified during the Construction implies or, I should say, preempts state's right for succession. With the war to save the Union, this implication is blatantly obvious.
回复 'sufficient' 的评论 : In Texas v. White (1869), the Court held in a 5–3 decision that Texas had remained a state of the United States ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. It further held that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null." However, this decision did allow some possibility of divisibility "through revolution, or through consent of the States."
I have had some trouble with some of the people. Reuben, Parks & Edward, in
the beginning of the previous week, rebelled against my authority—refused
to obey my orders, & said they were as free as I was, etc., etc.—I
succeeded in capturing them & lodging them in jail. They resisted till
overpowered & called upon the other people to rescue them.
有几个人给我带来了麻烦。鲁本、帕克斯和爱德华,他们在上周刚开始时反抗了我的权
威——拒绝服从我的命令,并称他们与我一样自由等等,等等。我成功抓住了他们并投
进监狱。他们直到被制服一直在反抗,还呼吁其他人来救他们。
In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge,
that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country.
It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a
greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings
are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong
for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa,
morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing,
is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead
them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known
& ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
I have always observed that wherever you find the neg**, everything is going
down around him, and wherever you find the white man, you see everything
around him improving. 根据我一向观察,哪里有黑人,哪里就更糟,哪里有白人,哪
里就在进步。
You will never prosper with blacks, and it is abhorrent to a reflecting mind
to be supporting and cherishing those who are plotting and working for your
injury, and all of whose sympathies and associations are antagonistic to
yours. I wish them no evil in the world—on the contrary, will do them every
good in my power, and know that they are misled by those to whom they have
given their confidence; but our material, social, and political interests
are naturally with the whites.
你永远不能与黑人共荣,而支持和珍爱这些正在密谋损害你,并且同情心与思想都与你
敌对的人的做法,是令人憎恶的。我并不希望他们不幸,相反,我会尽我所能地去善待
他们,并理解他们被他们所相信的人误导了;但我们的物质、社会以及政治利益将永远
与白人同在。
任华盛顿学院(华盛顿与李大学的前身,不是现在的华盛顿大学)校长期间,学生们在
校内组织了KKK分部,并且试图绑架强奸当地黑人女学生。这些学生至少两次试图对黑
人处以私刑,李将军似乎对此并没有什么特别的反应。有意思的是,当学生们想要额外
的圣诞节假期时,李将军倒是对他们严惩。
The neg**es have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which
are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.
黑人们既没有足够的智力,也没有足够的其他品质来担当政治权力的载体。
1870年,李将军逝世,此时KKK刚刚成立四年。整个南方,民主党和前邦联分子正在掀
起一波又一波针对黑人的暴力行动。而整个国家正在试图尽快摆脱内战的阴霾,南北试
图和解,白人们开始对敢于拼搏的李将军充满了崇敬之情。李将军去世后,他曾经的手
下具伯·尔利甚至对他如此评价:
Our beloved Chief stands, like some lofty column which rears its head among
the highest, in grandeur, simple, pure and sublime.
我们受人敬爱的首领如同巍峨的圆柱一般屹立,在最崇高的伟人中扬头,宏伟庄严,简
约、纯粹而崇高。
“But what is to be gained by putting this statue of Lee on Gettysburg
battlefield? If you want historical accuracy as your excuse, then place upon
this field a statue of Lee holding in his hand the banner under which he
fought, bearing the legend: ‘We wage this war against a government
conceived in liberty and dedicated to humanity.’”
在葛底斯堡战场上安置李将军像有什么好处?如果你想要用“历史准确性”作为借口,
那就在这战场上摆上一尊手持条幅的李将军像,上面写着:“我们向在自由中诞生,致
力于人类的这个政府宣战。”
one correction. According to the constitution of the United States at the time of civil war, southern states did have right to succeed from the Union. Lincoln's war to preserve the Union was indeed unconstitutional from legal perspective. This is not to argue on whether he should do it or not. In fact, there were serious disagreements between Lincoln and the then-Chief Justice Roger Taney in regarding to the war for the suppression of the rebellion. Taney deemed Lincoln's granting suspension of Habeas corpus by military personnel in the civil war unconstitutional. Lincoln at point even contemplated to arrest the chief Justice.
大多数华裔川粉既缺乏了解,又不喜欢思考。 我经常被问到: “Can you please advise me why you Chinese support Trump?” 或者 “你们大陆人怎么会挺川普?” 每次被问到,我都感到既尴尬又痛苦,觉得很丢脸, 因为在美国,来自全世界各国的少数族裔都整体上反Trump,只因他明显的种族主义心态。唯独来自中国大陆的移民,有一半是川粉。