中国学者外媒专访警告，俄乌再打下去，美国与全球均会遭殃
发布时间：2022-05-05 作者： 王文
http://www.rdcy.org/index/index/news_cont/id/693673.html
近日，人大重阳执行院长王文接受今日俄罗斯（RT）长达25分钟的英文专访，详细阐述中国学者观点，再次引起广泛关注。
编者按：俄乌冲突以来，中国人民大学重阳金融研究院（人大重阳）先后在BBC、华尔街日报、华盛顿邮报、外交学人、南华早报外媒发声发文，引起全球影响，为讲好中国故事贡献智库力量。近日，人大重阳执行院长王文接受今日俄罗斯（RT）长达25分钟的英文专访，详细阐述中国学者观点，再次引起广泛关注。现将视频、中英文内容整理如下：
核心提要
■ 俄罗斯是被迫发动这次特别军事行动，因为乌克兰把加入北约写入宪法，如果最后真的加入北约，意味着俄罗斯安全利益受到前所未有的威胁，俄罗斯晚动手，不如早动手。这正是为什么许多中国人都同情、支持俄罗斯的重要原因。
■ 乌克兰最好的战略定位应该是成为东西方文明的桥梁，而不是成为美国与北约的女仆，成为西方压制东方、压制俄罗斯的工具。
■ 直到冲突爆发前一天，中国外交部仍没有要求中国驻乌克兰使馆撤离，这已证明了中国并不知道实情。
■ 一个奇怪或不祥的数字巧合，即第一次世界大战（1914年7月28日）、第二次世界大战（1939年9月1日）和俄罗斯-乌克兰冲突（2022年2月24日）的开始日期的每两位数字之和都是相同的，让我们更加警惕这场战争的危险性，如果在这么下去，第三次世界大战不是不可能。
■ 现在，美国媒体仍然占据着国际话语权，“西方中心论”仍然是占主流的。这就是刚提到的“国际论述”，我们需要去追求更大的全球平等与国际民主化进程。
RT：大家好，欢迎来到Worlds Apart。中国有句老话“宁为太平犬，莫作离乱人”。我们很多人可能很快就会验证这个命题，因为我们几年前所了解的世界正在迅速瓦解。那取而代之的会是什么? 今天将要讨论这个话题。我们邀请到了中国人民大学重阳金融研究院执行院长王文。王教授，很高兴能与您对话，感谢您接受采访。
王文：感谢你的邀请。
RT：中国学者并不以过于戏剧化的评估著称。但我看到越来越多的学者，包括您，警告称，有爆发大规模战争的危险，甚至可能是涉及核武器的全球战争。你是如何得出这个“不详的”结论的？
王文：在我看来，冲突正在升级。随着美国与北约对乌克兰军事援助的加大。俄乌冲突已不再是一个区域战争，而正在升级为俄罗斯对整个西方世界，尤其是对北约的军事角力。我相信俄罗斯的战争意志，如果西方压力不断加大，俄罗斯只能被迫使用核武器，这是我非常担心的。也希望尽快能够俄乌之间恢复谈判结束冲突，否则，人类将面临着更危险的时刻。
RT：现在有很多关于所谓的亚太支点的讨论，现任的拜登政府和之前的几届政府都有提到。他们痛苦地、有时笨拙地，试图从中东和阿富汗脱身。结果却卷入了欧洲。你认为与俄罗斯在乌克兰问题上的冲突，是故意的还是他们实际上是无意中卷入的。
王文：在我看来，俄罗斯是被迫发动这次特别军事行动，因为乌克兰把加入北约写入宪法，如果最后真的加入北约，意味着俄罗斯安全利益受到前所未有的威胁，俄罗斯晚动手，不如早动手。这正是为什么许多中国人都同情、支持俄罗斯的重要原因。在许多中国人看来，俄罗斯长期受到西方威胁，不得不采取回击，这正是为什么许多中国人都同情、支持俄罗斯的重要原因。
RT：我从你的文章中了解到，许多中国人也非常同情乌克兰人民的遭遇，我不得不说，许多俄罗斯人对此也感到非常痛心。你将乌克兰描述为“壮汉的身体，丫鬟的命”，尽管这听起来令人不快，但很难否认这一点。因为乌克兰无法从其战略地位和自然资源中获益，在某种程度上，它与阿富汗相似，因为阿富汗位于欧亚大陆的中心，它有非常丰富的资源，但所有这些都弊大于利。在乌克兰问题，甚至是阿富汗问题上，到底是谁的错？
王文：国际关系学理论中常说“大国的悲剧”，其实中等国家和小国也有悲剧，因为乌克兰有丰富的资源，所以我说乌克兰有“壮汉的身体”。如果这些中等国家和小国不能平衡好与其他大国的关系，就会有可能成为大国的依附品与牺牲品。乌克兰最好的战略定位应该是成为东西方文明的桥梁，而不是成为美国与北约的女仆，成为西方压制东方、压制俄罗斯的工具。乌克兰的定位错了 ，使得它成为这次冲突的最大输家，这正是我担心乌克兰的原因。因为可能在冲突之后的未来，乌克兰有可能会成为欧洲最贫穷、最糟糕的国家。
RT：你之前说过，你认为俄罗斯这场军事行动实质上是被北约的持续侵犯被迫发动的。弗拉基米尔·普京授权了这次行动，他最后一次出国访问是在中国。在我看来，这次访问非常有趣，因为俄罗斯代表团上午抵达，一整天都在开会，并于晚上离开。所以在这些私人会面中肯定有一些非常重要的事情需要解释说明，毕竟在如此短的时间里不惜长途跋涉（肯定要商讨一些重要议题）。
你认为中国是否知道俄方要进行军事行动的意图？我知道无法确切地知道，也许只有中国国家主席和普京总统真正了解，您认为是什么?
王文：直到现在，我们仍然非常感谢普京总统在冬奥会开幕式时访问北京，因为冬奥是中国的一大盛事。
RT：普京北京之行不是只表达了对冬奥会的祝贺吧？我的意思是这背后也有一些重要的谈话。
王文：实际上，我曾就这个问题询问过一些中国官员，我也想知道普京总统在那次会谈上是否向中方透露过一些秘密信息，但是我现在非常确定，中方不知道俄罗斯这次会发动这些特别军事行动的消息。事实上，有足够的证据证明，直到冲突爆发前一天，中国外交部仍没有要求中国驻乌克兰使馆撤离，这已证明了中国并不知道实情。对此，不少中国人是有抱怨的，为什么你们不向中国透露消息。但另一方面，我们认为，俄罗斯是独立自主的国家，有权做自己认为正确的事情。
RT：尽管我们尚不明确中国是否被告知俄罗斯的军事意图，但我们应该承认在这次军事情动之前。俄罗斯和中国的关系就越来越密切，而在过去几个月里，这一关系更加紧密。中国方面仍试图表现出中立立场，表示中立本身就是独立自主的表现，它没有明确地站在美国霸权一边。你认为这是故意的吗？
王文：中国不会跟从美国去制裁俄罗斯，事实上，全世界80%的国家与人口都没有跟从西方去制裁俄罗斯，西方在这次对俄制裁中被世界孤立了。在中国看来，制裁解决不了问题，只会伤害普通老百姓的利益，中国一向反对美国霸权，但支持二战以来的国际秩序。在中国看来，破坏二战以来的国际秩序最大的国家是美国，美国不断退出相关条约，挑动战争，成为全球的麻烦制造者。
RT：王教授，目前战火仍在乌克兰境内，我们都希望这种情况能持续下去，尽管世界各地已能感受到这次对抗带来的连锁反应。你觉得有什么可能使这次冲突进一步蔓延，使这一军事行动从地方或区域行动变成全球暴力行动?
王文：我不知道你是否知道，就在上周，中华人民共和国主席习近平提出“全球安全倡议”，我认为这个倡议非常重要。它呼吁坚持共同、综合、合作、可持续的安全观。我认为中国的这个全球安全倡议是有价值的，在现实主义大国政治的背景下，所以中国现在要推动国际体系，坚持遵守联合国宪章，摒弃冷战思维，反对单边主义，不搞集团政治和阵营对抗，这是中国智慧和中国建议。
RT：你提到了中国国家主席，他也说过，世界各国乘坐在一条命运与共的大船上，要穿越惊涛骇浪，必须同舟共济，企图把谁扔下大海都是不可接受的。我觉得这句话很美，很具中国特色的比喻，那些想要“溺死”俄罗斯的美国人。他们已经不藏着掖着了，他们想要将俄罗斯扔下水，你认为这些美国人会听中国的意见吗？
王文：当然，我们希望美国人会听这些建议，在中国人的安全观中，人类就是在一条船上。现在，人类面临着非常危险的时刻。如同我在文章中，病毒、通胀、气候变化、粮荒，还有战争，正在同时发生。现在，人类面临着非常危险的时刻，需要做的是人类团结，而不是只顾自己国家的利益，在整个宇宙中，地球是渺小的。在地球中，任何一个国家也是渺小的。现在，一些国家尤其是美国，过于傲慢，常想着领导世界，而不善于团结他人。如果继续这样下去，迟早会受到历史的惩罚。
RT：欢迎回到Worlds Apart，今日节目嘉宾是王文，他是重阳金融研究院的执行院长。王教授，你是一位严谨的学者，但在你的一篇有关全球战争日益增长的危险的文章中，你提到了一个奇怪或不祥的数字巧合，即第一次世界大战（1914年7月28日）、第二次世界大战（1939年9月1日）和俄罗斯-乌克兰冲突（2022年2月24日）的开始日期的每两位数字之和都是相同的，我知道中国传统哲学赋予命理学很多意义。但我不知道你自己认为这一奇特的巧合有什么意义。
王文：谢谢你阅读我的文章，我大学本科的专业是历史，我喜欢在历史中寻找可供未来借鉴的教训。这个数字的巧合，让我们更加警惕这场战争的危险性，如果在这么下去，第三次世界大战不是不可能。中国传统经常教育我们，追求和平，偏好战争将会带来灭亡，美国是一个偏好战争的国家，俄罗斯也要吸取这个经验，最好的方式，仍然是尽快停止这场战争。
RT：中国还有句老话说，最好的战争就是不战而胜。显然，中国试图尽其所能驾驭与美国的关系，你写道，至少现在，中国已经能够避免陷入冷战陷阱，你认为美国对中国还有威胁吗?或者你认为迄今为止与俄罗斯的间接冲突会让华盛顿忙上几年吗?
王文：我非常担心这个问题。纵观历史，这次军事行动本应可以避免的，如果不是北约不断东扩，不是美国在挑动地区紧张，不是乌克兰挤破头想加入北约，但是，很显然，历史不能重演。现在悲剧已成，最好的弥补效果就是让战争尽快停止，要有更多人道主义行动，拯救不应该死去的平民生命，减少不必要的损失。
RT：我很清楚中国人不喜欢把乌克兰的情况与台湾问题相提并论，因为北京坚持一个中国政策，但你知道，拜登政府及历届美国政府，确实承诺给台北“支持”，鉴于美国安全部门对乌克兰的态度。事实上，他们基本上是在最需要美国的时候被抛弃的，你认为美国这些承诺有价值吗？
王文：现在在中国，有很多人认为，美国正在以乌克兰方式想在台湾再挑动一场战争。一些美国安全部门认为，在欧洲，美国借乌克兰平衡俄罗斯，削弱俄罗斯与欧洲，这是非常“聪明”的做法。在亚洲，美国同样可以借台湾平衡中国大陆，并且通过战争的方式，削弱中国崛起，这种想法是危险的、自私的。
美国将像牺牲乌克兰人生命那样，再次牺牲台湾人的生命，把台湾视为美国遏制中国大陆崛起的代理人，这又是政治的悲剧，因此我们不得不考虑这个问题。
RT：说到乌克兰，乌克兰是世界上主要的农产品出口国之一。正如你最近所写，超过14个国家25%以上依赖乌克兰小麦进口，我相信俄罗斯在第三国面前能清楚地意识到自己的责任，尤其是那些依赖乌克兰出口的国家，现实地说，你认为现在俄罗斯有能力确保春播季节如期开始吗?
而且它也应该如期开始，这样才能最大限度地减轻世界其他地区的负担，因为除了这场战争。我们还有许多季节性的干旱、蝗灾，和许多其他影响粮食生产的因素。
王文：实际上，许多中国人认为俄罗斯的特殊军事行动，关切相关的人道主义责任，而不是一味的军事进攻，这是俄罗斯军事推进速度较慢的重要原因。俄罗斯此次军事行动非常关心乌克兰的普通民众，你也提到了那些春播季节的因素。中国也提出人道主义六点倡议，提出对乌克兰普通民众的保护。现在，全世界都很担心，战争与新冠疫情相叠加，有可能一场更糟糕的粮荒会能来，所以我们不得不考虑其他国家。
RT：至少就目前而言，华盛顿似乎认为，为了惩罚俄罗斯，任何手段都是正当的，这已经导致大宗商品价格急剧上涨，它迫使许多公司改变生产方式，你认为世界会接受这些变化吗？你知道思想永远是正确的，或者你认为这可能会激起其他国家的一些反抗吗？迫使美国人理解这一点，强迫别人接受自己的决定是不对的，他们可以采取任何必要的行动来对付俄罗斯，但不可以迫使其他国家采取同样的行动。
王文：其实，现在越来越多人认为。美国是最不讲求人权、最自私的国家，美国最在乎的是，如何打败对手，至于打败对手时，产生对对象国的平民伤亡，或者第三国的伤害问题，美国并不在乎。在伊拉克和阿富汗，我们都深深感受到美国的残酷性，正如我所说，制裁解决不了问题。
RT：王教授，我想你会同意这一点，我从世界各地很多朋友的来信中看到，他们都认为美国人的行为自私。但直到最近，很少有国家拥有任何外交，经济甚至政治力量来抵制这种行为。你认为这种势头现在可能正在向更有成效的方向发展吗？例如，我知道有很多关于中国和沙特阿拉伯的讨论，一个美国的老牌盟友石油贸易转向人民币结算，你认为这种间接的举动能否挑战美国的霸权？这不是要挑战美国的霸权，而是要让世界变得更平衡、更安全，可以这么说，不再依赖于一个国家的意志。
王文：我认为这场冲突以后，会有一个非常重要的金融变化，那就是去美元化。美国把俄罗斯银行排出SWIFT之外，实际上是把人类金融文明的共同财富视为对外的武器，这是不公正的、也是不正确的，每一个国家都会这么想。过去我们信任美元，现在美国却把美元当作武器，那我们以后需要再相信美元吗？这些年来，越来越多国家抛弃美元，20年前，美元在国际货币体系当成储备货币比例还有77%，现在降到了58%，以后还会更低。实际上，美国和美元霸权正在走向终结。
RT：我们正看到中国和其他国家的崛起，包括货币，其中有一个像哲学问题的点，我们经常听到的一个表达和国际论述是，谁站在历史正确的一边谁站在历史错误的一边，我不得不说这是一个非常西方的表述，我甚至可以说这是一个非常基督教的概念，它把所有东西分成善恶两种。随着中国继续自然崛起，你认为这会让我们对善与恶有更复杂的理解吗? 那么不同对立面之间的平衡是什么呢?
王文：如果这场战争不是爆发在欧洲，可能没有那么多人关注，在非洲以及许多发展中国家，仍然有许多地区冲突，但很少有西方媒体报道，例如在阿富汗、伊拉克，美国仍留下许多战争的遗产与创伤，但是西方媒体没有及时报道，现在，美国媒体仍然占据着国际话语权，“西方中心论”仍然是占主流的。这就是你刚才提到的“国际论述”，我们需要去追求更大的全球平等与国际民主化进程。
RT：好的，王教授，我们的节目就要结束了，非常感谢你今天的见解。
王文：谢谢。
RT：也感谢大家的收看，我们下期节目再见。
以下为英文版
RT：Hello, welcome to Worlds Apart.An old Chinese saying suggests that it's better to be a dog in times of tranquility than a human in times of change,a proposition that many of us may test out soon,as the world we knew just a few years ago rapidly disintegrates.What is likely to emerge in its place?We’ll discuss that,I'm now joined by Wang Wen, Executive Dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.Dr. Wen, it's great to talk to you, thank you very much for your time.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you for having me now.
RT：Chinese scholars are not known for excessively dramatic assessments,but I know a lot of them, including yourself,warning about the danger of a major war,perhaps even a global war involving nuclear weapons.What made you reach such an ominous conclusion?
Wang wen：In my opinion, the conflict now is escalating.With the increase of military assistance from the United States and NATO to Ukraine,the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is no longer a regional war,but is escalating into Russia's military struggle against the whole western world,especially NATO.I believe in Russia's will of the war.If Western pressure continues to increase,Russia can only be forced to use nuclear weapons.This is what I am very worried about.I also hope to resume negotiations between Russia and Ukraine and end the conflict as soon as possible.Otherwise, I think mankind will face a more dangerous moment.
RT：Now, there’s been a lot of talk about so called Asia-Pacific pivot in the Biden’s administration and in the previous ones as well, They try to extricate themselves painfully and sometimes very clumsily, from the middle East, from Afghanistan,only to be embroiled in Europe.Do you think this conflict with Russia over Ukraine is deliberate or have they essentially stumbled into it?
Wang wen：In my opinion, Russia was forced to launch this special military operation.Because Ukraine has written its accession to NATO into its constitution.If Ukraine finally join NATO,it means that Russia's security interests are under unprecedented threat from the west.Russia's early start action is better than late start.This is a very important reason whymany Chinese sympathize with and support Russia.In the eyes of many Chinese, Russia has been threatened by the West for a long time and has to fight back. So, this is why many Chinese sympathize with and support Russia.
RT：And I know from your articles that many in China also sympathize very strongly with the people of Ukraine and their suffering. And I have to say that many Russians are too very, very greatly pained by that.But you once described Ukraine as having the body of a strong man and the fate of a servant girl,and gender insensitive or politically incorrect. It may sound to a westerner.I think it's hard to deny,given how poorly Ukraine has been able to benefit from both its strategic position and its natural resources.And I think to some extent it's very similar to Afghanistan.Because Afghanistan is centrally located within Eurasian continent. it has very rich resources, but all of that did it more harm than good.Whose fault is that both in the case of Ukraine and perhaps even in the case of Afghanistan?
Wang wen：When we study international relations theory, it is often said that "the tragedy of great powers".
In fact, there are a lot of tragedies in medium-sized countries or small-sized countries.For Ukraine, because the Ukraine has very good resources, that’s why I call Ukraine has a very strong body.But the problem is that if those countries, medium-sized or small-sized, cannot balance its relations with other big countries,it may become a dependency and victim of big countries.Ukraine's best strategic positioning should be to become a bridge between eastern and Western civilizations,but not a servant girl of the United States and NATO,nor a tool for the west to suppress the East or Russia.I think now Ukraine's positioning is very wrong,which makes it the biggest loser in this conflict.That’s why I’m very worried about Ukraine, because maybe in the future after the conflict, Ukraine may become the poorest and worst country in Europe.
RT：Now, you said before that you essentially believe that Russia was pushed into this military operation by NATO's continuing encroachment. Vladimir Putin, who authorized this operation.His last visit abroad was to China,and it was very interesting in my view, this visit. Because the Russian delegation flew in in the morning. They had a day full of meetings and they left in the evening. And there must have been something very, very important in those personal meetings to justify,you know, traveling such large distances for such a short period of time. Do you think the Chinese were informed of the Russian intentions to launch this operation?I know that there is no way of knowing it for sure. Perhaps only President Xi and President Putin know that. But what's your intuition on that?
Wang wen：Till now, we still very appreciate the President Putin's visit to Beijing at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympic.Because this is a very important event for China.
RT：Putin just celebrations, right? I mean there were some important talks behind the scenes as well.
Wang wen：To be honestly, I ask the question to a lot of China officials,and I need an answer whether that time President Putin tell or share the secret information to China side.But now I very confirmed that China does not know the information that Russia would launch this special action this time.Because in fact, you know, very obvious evidence is that until the day before the outbreak of the conflict, the Chinese foreign ministry still did not ask the Chinese Embassy in Ukraine to quit.This has proved that China does not know the truth.That's why I said some Chinese people complained about this.why didn’t you share the information?But on the other hand,we understand because we believe that Russia is an independent country and has the right to do what it thinks is right.
RT：Now despite this ambiguity on whether or not China was informed about Russia's intentions, I think we would agree that even before this military operation, the relationship between Russia and China was growing closer. Over the last couple of a month,I think it became even tighter.And while the Chinese side is still trying to project a neutral line, you know, projecting that neutral line in and of itself is a sign of independence. It's not siding explicitly with the American hegemon. Do you think that is intentional?
Wang wen：I think actually China will not follow the United States to sanction Russia.In fact, 80% of the world's countries and population have not followed the west to sanction Russia.The West was isolated by the world in these sanctions against Russia. In China's view, sanctions cannot solve the problem, but will only harm the interests of ordinary people. China has always opposed American hegemony, but we support the international order since World War II. In China's view, the largest country that has undermined the international order established since World War II is the United States. The United States continues to withdraw from relevant treaties, provoke wars and become a global troublemaker.
RT：Dr. Wang, for now, the fighting is still contained to Ukraine,and we all hope that it will stay that way.Although the ripple effects from this confrontation are already felt around the world. What could possibly make the hostilities spread further and turn this military operation from a local or regional one into a global outbreak of violence?
Wang wen：Because I don't know whether you know Last week President Xi put forward a very interesting new term "global security initiative"，because this initiative, I think it's very important.It called for the concept of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security.I think China's global security initiative is valuable in the context of realistic power politics.So nowadays we Chinese want to push the international system to adhere to the UN Charter, abandon the Cold War mentality,oppose unilateralism, and refrain from group politics and camp confrontation.So, I think this is China's wisdom and suggestions.
RT：Now you mentioned President Xi, and he was also talking about humanity being placed on one ship and having to face crushing waves together. He said that throwing anyone overboard would present a major problem for everybody.But I think it's a beautiful, very Chinese metaphor. But do you think the Americans who are clearly intent on sinking Russia, I mean, they're not hiding it. They want to push Russia underwater. Do you think the Americans are likely to listen to perceive that view from China?
Wang wen：Well, we hope American can listen to and hear.Because in the Chinese concept of security, human beings are on the same ship.Now, mankind is facing a very dangerous moment.As in my article, viruses, inflation, climate change, food shortages and wars are happening at the same time.Now human being is in a very dangerous moment.Now, what needs to be done is to unite mankind,not just focus on the interests of their own country.In the whole universe, the earth is small;In the earth, any country is also small.Now, some countries, especially the United States,are too arrogant and often want to lead the world,but are not good at uniting others.If this continues,it will be punished by history.
RT：Okay, well, Professor. Wang, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. Stay tuned.
RT：Welcome back to Worlds Apart with Wang Wen Executive Dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.Dr. Wang, you're a very serious scholar,but in one of your articles, speaking about this growing danger of a global war,you mentioned a curious or ominous numerical coincidence that the sum of every two digits of the starting dates of World War I (07/28/1914),World War II (09/01/1939) and the Russia-Ukraine conflict (02/24/2022) are the same,they all go down to number 5.And I know the traditional Chinese philosophy assigned a lot of significance to numerology,but I wonder if yourself see any meaning in this peculiar coincidence.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you for reading my articles.Because actually my undergraduate major is history.I like to look for lessons in history that can be used for reference in the future.The coincidence of this number makes us more alert to the danger of this war.If this continues, the Third World War is not impossible.Chinese tradition often teaches us that pursuing peace and preferring war will bring destruction.The United States is a country that prefers war,and Russia should also learn from this experience.Now I suggest the best way is still to stop the war as soon as possible.
RT：Now, I'm thinking there's another Chinese saying that suggests that the best war is the war not fought.and obviously the Chinese tried to navigate their relationship with the United States the best they can.You wrote yourself that for now, at least, you have been able to avoid a falling into a cold war trap.Do you think that there's still a danger when it comes to the United States in China? Or do you think the indirect conflict with Russia so far will keep Washington busy for a couple of years?
Wang wen：I'm very worried about it.because if we look at the history,This military action could have been avoided,if the NATO did not continue to push the eastward expansion, or if the United States didn’t provoke regional tensions,or if Ukraine didn’t try to join NATO.However, it is clear that history cannot be repeated.Now that the tragedy has happened,the best remedy is to stop the war as soon as possible,have more humanitarian actions,save the lives of civilians who should not die and reduce unnecessary losses.
RT：I’m very aware that the Chinese don’t like the comparison of the Ukrainian situation to that of Taiwan because of Beijing’s insistence on one China policy, but you know that the Biden administration and the other administrations, too have promised their support for Taipei.In view of how Ukraine was treated by the Americans security p-wise, The fact that they have essentially been know abandoned in the time of great need.Do you think those promises of American support are worth anything?
Wang wen：Yeah, in China, a lot of people, they think that nowthe United States is trying to provoke another war in Taiwan in the way of Ukraine.Some US security departments believe that in Europe, the United States uses Ukraine to balance Russia and weaken Russia and Europe. This is a very smart way.In Asia, they think, US can also balance Chinese mainland with Taiwan and weaken China's rise through war. This idea is dangerous and selfish. The United States will sacrifice the lives of Taiwanese people again, just as it sacrificed the lives of Ukrainians.Taiwan is regarded as the agent of the US to contain the rise of the Chinese mainland.This is another political tragedy.So, we have to consider about it.
RT：Speaking about Ukraine，it's well known that Ukraine is one of the world's leading exporters of agricultural goods.And as you wrote recently，more than fourteen countries are more than 25% depend on Ukrainian wheat imports.I'm sure the Russians are keenly aware of their own responsibility before the third countries，especially those who are dependent on the Ukrainian exports.But do you think, realistically it is now within Russia's ability to ensure that the spring sowing season begins as it should? And that it continues as it should, so that to minimize the burden on the rest of the world.Because in addition to this war,we also have many seasons of droughts, locust invasions and many other factors that are affecting the production of food.
Wang wen：So actually, in a lot of Chinese people's views that Russia's special military operations are very concerned about relevant humanitarian responsibilities rather than blindly military attacks.This is an important reason for Russia's slow military promotion.Russia’s military operations are very concerned about Ukrainian ordinary people.As well as you are talking about those spring sowing season elements.China has also put forward a six-points humanitarian initiative to protect ordinary people in Ukraine.Now, the whole world is worried that the war is superimposing with COVID-19,and a worse grain shortage will be possible.So, we have to consider about the other countries.
RT：Washington, for now at least, seems to believe that,in penalizing Russia, any means justify the goal. It already led to steep increases in commodity prices. It forced many companies to alter production change. Do you think that the world is likely to take it as this? You know, the mind is always right. Or do you think it may provoke some counterreaction from other countries to force the Americans to understand that? It's not okay to force others to carry the burden of their decisions. They may take whatever actions they do necessarily against the Russians without forcing other countries to do the same.
Wang wen：Actually, more and more people, not only in China, but also in a lot of countries,believe that the most selfish country is the United States.What the United States cares about most is how to defeat its opponents.As for the problem of civilian casualties in the target country or injury to a third country when defeating the opponent,America doesn't care.For example, in Iraq and Afghanistan,we all deeply feel the cruelty of the United States.So, as I said, sanctions will not solve any problems.
RT：Dr. Wang, I think you would agree that many countries, I mean I heard from lots of my guests from around the world.They all believe that the Americans have demonstrated selfish behavior. But up until recently, very few countries had any diplomatic or economic or even political force to resist that behavior. Do you think that momentum may be building to something more productive right now? For example, I know there are lots of talks about China and Saudi Arabia. You know, an old American ally switching to yuan-denominated trade in oil.Do you think such indirect moves cannot even challenge the American hegemony?It's not about challenging the American hegemony but making the world a more balanced and more secure,so to say, and not to depend on the will of one country.
Wang wen：I think there will be a very important financial change after this conflict.That is de dollarization.By excluding Russian banks from SWIFT, the United States actually regards the common wealth of human financial civilization as an external weapon,which is very unfair and incorrect.Every country will think that.In the past, we trusted the dollar,but now the United States uses the dollar as a weapon.Do we need to trust dollars again?Over the years, more and more countries have abandoned the dollar.Twenty years ago, the proportion of the US dollar as a reserve currency in the international monetary system was still 77%,but now it has dropped to 58%.It will be lower and lower in the future.In fact, the hegemony of the US and US dollar is coming to an end.
RT：As we see the rising prominence of China and other countries, including and the currencies as well. And one of the it's sort of philosophical questions，that one of the expressions we hear a lot and the international discourse is who is on the right side of history and who is on the wrong side of history,which I have to say is a very western. I would even say a very Christian concept, you know, dividing everything in starkly good or bad terms. As China continues its natural rise to prominence,do you think it will introduce a more complex understanding of what is good, what is bad? And what's the balance between various opposites?
Wang wen：I think if the War didn't break out in Europe,there might not be so much attention.In Africa, in a lot of developing countries, there are still many regional conflicts,but few western media reported.For example, in Afghanistan and Iraq,the United States still left many war legacies and wounds,but the western media did not report in time.At present, the American media still occupy the international voice,and the "Western centrism" is still the mainstream.That’s you mentioned discourse.We need to pursue greater global equality and international democratization.
RT：Well, Dr. Wang, we have to leave it here.Thank you very much for your insights today.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you so much.
RT：And thank you for watching.Hope to see you again on the Worlds Apart.
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