Jeffrey Sachs 19世纪最暴力国家是英国，自1950最暴力国家是美国
雅典民主论坛 民主十年：中国和俄罗斯
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
2022年10月7日
十年前，习近平登上中国国家领导人的宝座，弗拉基米尔·普京开始第二次担任俄罗斯总统。在接下来的十年里，两人都巩固了对各自国家的权力，如今，两人都毫无歉意地共同宣称，他们的专制、无情、大男子主义统治是一种更有效的民主模式，赢得了全世界的崇拜者和模仿者。随着普京将这种模式推向难以想象的极端，这对同胞和有抱负的独裁者产生了什么影响？防止这种模板进一步复制的最佳方法是什么？
雅罗斯瓦夫·库伊什（Jaroslaw Kuisz），《自由文化报》主编
杰弗里·萨克斯（Jeffrey Sachs），哥伦比亚大学可持续发展中心主任
苏云·吴（Su Yun Woo），苏黎世大学政治科学研究所博士后研究员
主持人：史蒂文·埃尔兰格（Steven Erlanger），《纽约时报》欧洲首席外交记者
Jeffrey Sachs 雅典民主论坛精彩内容
Jeffrey Sachs Highlights from Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP_SpW-DyQg&t=2s
社会有着根深蒂固的政治文化和传统，这些文化可以追溯到很久以前，无论好坏，这些文化都是真实的，它们是持久的，它们是不同的，它们不能像我们想要的那样简单地排列出哪个是最好的，哪个是最坏的，我需要一种方法，我非常喜欢你说的话，也同意你的观点，呃，有不同的叙述
人们持有这些不同的叙述，这些不同的叙述各有优点，在一个充满不同叙述的世界中，解决办法是比我们在美国更多地相互交流，我说我们，我真正的意思是，我们的政治精英不会与中国的政治精英交谈，除非指责他们或对他们大喊大叫或做其他事情，我们当然不会与俄罗斯领导人或外交官握手，但我在 42 年的现役生涯中，一直在倾听不同的意见叙述，从不同角度看待这些观点，发现各种立场都有很多优点，如果你坐下来互相交谈，我们实际上会有所收获，所以让我具体说一下，今天的中国与汉朝并没有什么不同，它是一个中央集权的行政国家，有着儒家文化，有着官僚卓越的传统，当我与中国高级官员交谈时，我经常与他们打交道，他们是我所知道的世界上知识最渊博的专业人士，当我与他们打交道时，他们知道自己的职责，他们经验丰富，训练有素，有时是我的学生，他们相信中央集权行政国家的专业卓越，这种政治文化已有 2000 多年的历史，当你看俄罗斯时，它看起来很像普京，看起来很像，这很难，这不是偶然的，这是一种权威文化和传统文化，当我看自己的国家美国时，它是一个半民主的白人主导的等级种族主义社会，旨在维护精英的特权，这就是它在 1787 年成立的原因，它是一个奴隶制国家种族灭绝的国家，为了白人文化而屠杀美洲原住民，但令人惊讶的是，情况仍然如此，尽管我们现在比以前更加多元化，所以让我问你这个问题，杰夫，因为现在这是一个很好的观点，这些是深刻的文化差异，对吧，但我们不应该仅仅因为我们说民主而简化，你知道这些是的，这很重要，重要的是细节，正如我昨晚提到的柏拉图民主，这是他最不关心的事情，那是敌人，当然，他是一位哲学家国王，就在共和国，对于亚里士多德来说，这是一个更加微妙和复杂的治理体系，混合了少数人和多数人的治理，但在《总帐》的好的一面，我想再说一点关于民主的事情，因为我们在一个民主论坛上，我们将民主视为好事，19 世纪世界上最暴力的国家，也许是最民主或第二民主的国家，那就是英国，你可以在国内民主，在国外残酷地帝国化，世界上最暴力的国家自 1950 年以来一直是 美国
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
Jeffrey Sachs
我的经验是，不同的社会有着根深蒂固的政治文化和传统，这些文化可以追溯到很久以前，有好的也有坏的，这些文化是真实的，是持久的，是不同的，它们不能像我们想要的那样，简单地用一个尺度来衡量，即这是最好的，这是最坏的，我们需要一种方法，我非常喜欢你说的话，也同意你的观点，人们持有不同的观点，这些不同的观点各有优点，在一个充满不同观点的世界中，解决办法是比我们在美国更多地相互交流，我说我们真正的意思是，我们的政治精英不会和中国的政治精英说话，除非指责他们，对他们大喊大叫，或者做其他事情，我们当然不会和俄罗斯领导人或外交官握手，但我在 42 年的现役生涯中，一直在倾听不同的观点，从不同的角度看待这些观点，发现各种立场都有很多优点，如果你坐下来互相交谈，我们实际上会让我具体说一下，今天的中国与汉朝并无太大区别，是一个中央集权的行政国家，具有儒家文化，有着官僚卓越的传统，当我与中国高级官员交谈时，我经常与他们交谈，他们是我所认识的世界上知识最渊博的专业人士，当我与他们打交道时，他们知道自己的职责，他们经验丰富，训练有素，有时是我的学生，他们相信去中央集权行政国家的专业卓越，这种政治文化已有 2000 多年的历史，当你看俄罗斯时，它看起来很像普京，看起来很像 AAR，这不是偶然的，这是一种权威文化和传统文化，当我看自己的国家美国时，它是一个半民主的、由精英主导的等级种族主义社会，旨在通过精英来维护特权，这就是它在 1787 年成立的原因，它是一个拥有奴隶的种族灭绝国家，为了白人文化而杀害美洲原住民，但令人惊讶的是，它仍然看起来是这样，尽管我们现在比以前更加多元化，让我问一下你这个，因为我想指出的是，这些是深刻的文化差异，对吧，但我们不应该仅仅因为我们说民主和 bl 而简化，你知道这些是，是的，这很重要，重要的是细节，正如我昨晚提到的柏拉图民主，这是他最不关心的事情，那是敌人，当然，他是哲学家国王，就在共和国，对于亚里士多德来说，这是一个更加微妙和复杂的治理体系，混合了少数人和多数人的治理，但在《总帐》的好的一面，我想再说一点关于民主，因为我们处于一种民主形式中，我们将民主视为好的，19 世纪世界上最暴力的国家可能是最民主的或第二民主的国家，那就是英国，你可以在国内民主，在国外残酷地实行帝国主义，自 1950 年以来，世界上最暴力的国家是美国，它一直是迄今为止最暴力的国家。
史蒂文·埃尔兰格
杰弗里，我是主持人，够了
杰弗里·萨克斯
好的，我说完了
[掌声] 激烈
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
2022年10月7日
Ten years ago, Xi Jinping ascended to national leadership in China and Vladimir Putin began his second stint as Russia’s president. Over the next decade, both have consolidated power over their countries, and today both unapologetically and jointly proclaim their autocratic, ruthless, macho rule as a more effective model of democracy, winning admirers and imitators the world over. As Putin has pushed this model to unthinkable extremes, what has the effect been on fellow and aspiring autocrats? What is the best way to prevent the template from replicating even further?
Jaroslaw Kuisz, Editor in Chief, Kultura Liberalna
Jeffrey Sachs, Director, Center for Sustainable Development, Columbia University
Su Yun Woo, Postdoctoral Researcher, Institute of Political Science, University of Zurich
Moderated by Steven Erlanger, Chief Diplomatic Correspondent, Europe, The New York Times
Jeffrey Sachs Highlights from Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP_SpW-DyQg&t=2s
societies have a very deep-rooted political cultures and traditions that extend far back in history and uh for good and for bad and that these cultures are real they are persistent they are different they don't rank an easy scale that this is the best and this is the worst like we want to do I and we need an approach I very much like what you said and agree with it uh there are different narratives
that are held and they these different narratives have Merit and the solution in a world of different narratives is to speak with each other more than we do we in the United States and I say we what I really mean is our political Elites do not speak with Chinese political Elites except to point fingers or to yell at them or to do other things we certainly don't even shake hands with Russian leaders or diplomats but I've lived my whole career for 42 years of active duty listening to different narratives and seeing those perspectives from different sides and finding a lot of Merit in the various positions and saying if you would sit down to speak with each other we'd actually get somewhere so let me be specific okay China looks today not completely different from the Han Dynasty a centralized administrative state and with Confucian culture with a tradition of Excellence of the mandarins when I speak with Chinese Senior officials which I do often they are the best informed professionals I know in the world when I deal with them they know their brief they're sophisticated well-trained occasionally my students and they believe in professional Excellence of it as centralized administrative State and that political culture is more than 2 000 years old when you are looking at Russia it looks a lot like Putin looks a lot like it's hard it's not an accident that is a culture of authority and a culture of tradition when I look at my own country the United States it is a semi-democratic white dominated hierarchical racist society that aims to preserve privilege by the elites that's how it was formed in 1787 it was a slave owning genocidal country killing Native Americans for a white culture but amazingly it still looks that way although we're much more diverse now than we were so let me ask you this Jeff because this is a good point now that these are deep cultural distinctions right but we shouldn't just simplify because we say democracy and you know these are yes it's important what's important is actually the details as I mentioned last night Plato democracy that was the last thing on his mind that was the enemy the the plus was a philosopher king of course right in in the Republic and for Aristotle it was much more subtle and complex of a system of governance that mixed governance by the one by the few and by the many but on the good side of The Ledger and one more point I want to make about democracy because we're in a democracy Forum where we we treat democracy as the good the most violent country in the world in the 19th century by fire was perhaps the most democratic or second most democratic and that was Britain you can be Democratic at home and ruthlessly Imperial abroad the most violent country in the world since 1950 has been the United States.
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
Jeffrey Sachs
My experience is that different societies have very deepr rooted political cultures and traditions that extend far back in history and uh for good good and for bad and that these cultures are real they are persistent they are different they don't rank on an easy scale that this is the best and this is the worst like we want to do I and we need an approach I very much like what you said and agree with it uh there are different narratives that are held and they these different narratives have Merit and the solution in a world of different narratives is to speak with each other more than we do we in the United States and I say we what I really mean is our political Elites do not speak with Chinese political Elites except to point fingers or to yell at them or to do other things we certainly don't even shake hands with Russian leaders or diplomats but I've lived my whole career for 42 years of active duty listening to different narratives and seeing those perspectives from different sides and finding a lot of Merit in the various positions and saying if you would sit down to speak with each other we'd actually get somewhere so let me be specific okay China looks today not completely different from the Han Dynasty a centralized administrative State and with Confucian culture with a tradition of Excellence of the mandarins when I speak with Chinese Senior officials which I do often they are the best informed professionals I know in the world when I deal with them they know their brief they're sophisticated well-trained occasionally my students and they believe in professional Excellence of a de centralized administrative State and that political culture is more than 2,000 years old when you are looking at Russia it looks a lot like Putin looks a lot like AAR it's not an accident that is a culture of authority and a culture of tradition when I look at my own country the United States it is a semi-democratic wh dominated hierarchical racist society that aims to preserve privilege by by the elites that's how it was formed in 1787 it was a slave owning genocidal country killing Native Americans for a white culture but amazingly it's still looks that way although we're much more diverse now than we were let let me ask you this je because this is I want to point out that these are deep cultural distinctions right but we shouldn't just simplify because we say democracy and bl and you know these are yes it's important what's important is actually the details as I mentioned last night Plato democracy that was the last thing on his mind that was the enemy the the plus was a philosopher king of course right in in the Republic and for Aristotle it was much more subtle and complex of a system of governance that mixed governance by the one by the few and by the many but on the good side of The Ledger and one more point I want to make about democracy because we're in a democracy form where we we treat democracy as the good the most violent country in the world in the 19th century by far was perhaps the most Democrat ratic or second most democratic and that was Britain you could be Democratic at home and ruthlessly Imperial abroad the most violent country in the world since 1950 has been the United States it's been by far invol
Steven Erlanger
Jeffrey I'm your moderator and it's enough
Jeffrey Sachs
okay I'm done
[Applause]
