美国发生了什么 约瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨巡回演讲

美国发生了什么？ | 约瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨巡回演讲 - 悉尼

What's happening in the United States? | Joseph Stiglitz Speaking Tour - Sydney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WNbsV7jVHA

澳大利亚研究所 2024年8月14日

诺贝尔经济学奖得主约瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨教授与澳大利亚第 29 任总理马尔科姆·特恩布尔 AC 阁下和澳大利亚研究所国际与安全事务高级研究员艾玛·肖蒂斯博士就澳大利亚与美国关系的未来进行了对话。

约瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨教授将作为澳大利亚研究所的客人访问澳大利亚，这是我们 2024 年 30 周年庆典的一部分。

[掌声]

欢迎大家，我是澳大利亚研究所的执行董事理查德·丹尼斯，今晚在这样一个美妙的房间里进行如此精彩的对话，所以我马上回来和你们谈谈，但是，首先，让我先欢迎大家，我希望大家关掉手机，我为这个提示无缝安排了这一切，但我真的很荣幸向大家介绍来自大都会当地原住民土地委员会的迈克尔·韦斯特叔叔，他出生、长大，一生都生活在悉尼的原住民社区，他是被偷走的一代人中的一员，如果你想更多地了解他，他会告诉你一些他今晚的旅程，迈克尔曾担任过各种各样的职务，包括新南威尔士州土著商会的董事，The Strain Communications 消费者行动的董事网络和全国道歉日委员会联合主席，所以请和我一起欢迎迈克尔叔叔，大家对这次演讲有什么期待，毫无疑问，我也很期待，嗯，我开车来的时候，和图书馆的某个人聊天，关于今晚的话题，美国发生了什么，什么没有发生，有人可能会说，是的，我的意思是已经疯狂了 8 年，或者什么的，嗯，当你想想，嗯，是的，嗯，疫情告诉人们给自己注射漂白剂可能不是一个好主意，然后你看到卫生官员在后台感到震惊，然后你必须在全国范围内发出警告，请不要给自己注射或喝漂白剂，这不是解决办法，嗯，是的，我要说的是，我们这里是美丽的盖特尔国家，我们有世界上最美丽的港口，不是吗，我们很幸运拥有它，嗯，我要说的是，我在这里谈论的是盖迪加尔，显然卡姆·雷格尔是在代码机的另一边，我们有 wangal，当我们向内陆前进时，在我们的左边，如果我们在那里划船，嗯，在我们的右边，Walla migle 显然是 rers 和 vanal，作为一个强大的 camaga 女人的伴侣，名叫 bangaroo 嗯，我们有一块以她命名的土地，我们还有以 balong 命名的歌剧院，他在那里有自己的住所，然后我们继续前进，我们有 param，在我们的语言中是 bar，我们有，嗯，其他语言也有，威尔士语，所以 bar 的意思是 e，还有一个关于悉尼港和水的整个美丽的创造故事，这是由一个巨大的 Bara 创造的，它现在就在东贝尔曼附近休息，那里有一个小岛叫 ml 或 memo 嗯，也被称为山羊岛，但它的真名是哺乳动物，它正在漫长的旅程中过渡回 L 委员会嗯，我要说的是，我们的图腾非常重要，几年前我们失去了它们，几年前数十亿个嗯，我们经历过火灾，那些火灾风暴，嗯，我们的图腾对我们来说非常重要，威尔士会来到这里，这是吉格图腾的一部分，在煤炭装载机上还有雕刻，漂亮的鲸鱼雕刻，它们会有不同的名字，鲸鱼会有不同的名字，沿着海岸上下，因为它带着小牛旅行，它们实际上会来到这里，到戈姆拉，也就是亲爱的港休息，但不幸的是他们不能，嗯，他们现在在那里有船展，但是还有其他事情，但我会的，我前几天还在想，如果它们来这里休息，那不是很好吗，但是他们现在不能了，但他们确实进来参观，我相信这是他们记忆中许多千年来来到这里，嗯，我想说，有一只美丽的鸟，嗯，有白色的羽毛，黑色的尾羽，脖子很长，喙很长，嗯，它被称为神圣的Ibis，呃，不要叫我本鸡，谢谢，我是神圣的 IUS，就像埃及文化有神圣的 IIs 一样，记住这一点非常重要，实际上，前几天我和其他一些长老交谈过，我们在谈论这个问题，它实际上与 abigal 人有相似之处，当你想到它时，你认为那是什么，因为它被剥夺了它的国家，它是湿地鸟，是一只美丽的鸟，嗯，它让我在疫情期间保持理智，我可以出去看看他们的一个小社区，可能到那边的墙上，嗯，看到他们，他们的我之所以会这样想是因为我尊重它们，而且我很幸运能够在我家前院看到它们的幼崽，它们的喙很小，它们的父母在照顾它们，因为它们是一夫一妻制的，嗯，我想说的是，它们可能在翻垃圾桶，看起来有点脏，但这不是它们的错，而是人类的错，因为我们没有关心它们的国家，它们只是在努力生存，嗯，正如我所说，它们被剥夺了我们的土地，嗯，他们被指责造成了他们的处境，所以我们需要成为聪明的人类和聪明的澳大利亚人，嗯，确保我们在和解方面有一条正确的前进之路，嗯，我们可以做得更好，我们是一个非常富裕的第一世界国家，我们的人民生活在第三世界条件下，我们可以做得更好，我知道去年的全民公投并没有按照原始人想要的方式进行，但我们有 650 万人投票支持我们嗯，我认为还有很多教育工作要做，还有很多真相需要揭露，这些会改变人们的思想，改变人们的心，嗯，我要说的是，我们有必要默哀一下，向祖先致敬，向地球母亲致敬，向那些一路走来失去的人致敬，他们不仅仅是数字，他们都是人，有自己的梦想，有自己的家庭，有自己的社区，有自己的名字，还有，嗯，同样重要的是要尊重所有 ABS TOS rad on tradish 所有者，长者和过去和现在的监护人，因为他们照顾着国家的精神和文化，作为澳大利亚人，你必须负责任地照顾好它们，嗯，我们在新南威尔士州有那些 40,000 年历史的鱼笼，还有 40,000 多年历史的墓地，里面有男人和女人，还有嗯，仪式 andoko，所以嗯，如果我们默哀一分钟，表达敬意，反思一下，现在就在这里旅行，让我们集中精力我们有三条美丽的河流，不是吗？它们是演讲的边界，我们有 Hawks spre nepan 和 Georges，代表大都会地方 Abal 土地委员会，我们的长老和我们的成员欢迎今晚在座的各位，我相信这将是一场非常有趣的对话，是的，未来会怎样，我想翻开新的一页，是的，我们想说，大家一起努力，一起前进，进行坦诚的对话，讲出我们需要的真相，我来这里是为了这个图书馆，为了这个礼堂的开幕，我来过这里很多次，我想当我来到这里的州立图书馆时，这里有很多东西，我想原住民也不包括在内，这里有一些敏感材料，但州立图书馆最棒的地方是，我知道去年我们为 Abal toyr 开设了一个特别的房间，让人们可以去那里阅读材料，以一种敏感和文化安全的方式，这就是我们所拥有的要明智地理解彼此的文化，我们希望你们也能在自己的文化中保持坚定的自我认同，这一点非常重要，我认为我们在过去几年的疫情中学到，过去是，现在也是，将来也是，AB 的土地永远不会安顿下来，让我们互相尊重，尊重动物，尊重 II，如果他们能多一点尊重，我想在世界各地，在我们看到的地方，在他们的心中多一点爱，我想我们会有一个更美好的世界，不是吗，也许他们中的一些人也需要一个大大的拥抱，我想他们确实需要，享受这个夜晚，我相信这将是一次有趣的谈话，我有点害怕，期待着美国的未来，谢谢你，非常感谢迈克尔，再次感谢大家的到来，这对我们澳大利亚研究所来说是一个非常特别的夜晚，今年是我们成立 30 周年多年来，我一直试图将伟大的想法融入澳大利亚的全国辩论中，今晚这样的夜晚，既是实现这一目标的好方法，也是庆祝这一目标的好方法，所以，非常感谢大家今晚的到来，感谢在场的捐助者，环顾四周，看看这里所有在听的人，感谢你们，我真的很感激，今晚，斯蒂格教授的这次旅行部分得到了安德鲁·法伦基金会的支持，非常感谢安德鲁，让我直接谈正事，我想今晚会有一些话题要谈，我们的第一位嘉宾当然是约瑟夫·斯蒂格莱茨教授，乔是世界银行前首席经济学家，诺贝尔经济学奖得主，美国经济委员会主席，比尔·克林顿总统的顾问，哥伦比亚大学商学院经济学教授，说他对经济产生了影响社区，事实上，经济辩论只是一个令人难以置信的轻描淡写，所以我们可以先欢迎乔教授两年前来到这里，作为澳大利亚研究所的嘉宾，很高兴他再次回来，我们今晚的下一位嘉宾当然是马尔科姆·特布尔，马尔科姆是我们第 29 任总理，在进入政界之前，他从事过法律、商业和媒体工作，显然马尔科姆多年来与美国有一些有趣的接触，我猜想今晚甚至可能会讨论这些接触，包括与奥巴马总统谈判，一项将难民带到美国的协议，特朗普总统当然对此有一些看法，当然，马尔科姆也在恢复跨太平洋伙伴关系或 TPP 方面发挥了作用，因为美国退出后，如果我们考虑到唐纳德·特朗普目前的贸易方式，历史正在重演，所以我们可以加入吗Malcolm Turble 今晚的演讲非常荣幸您能来到这里，谢谢 Malcolm，最后，Emma 博士是澳大利亚研究所国际安全事务项目的负责人，Emma 是一位历史学家和作家，她写了一本关于澳大利亚与美国关系的精彩书籍，书名为《我们杰出的朋友澳大利亚与美国的致命联盟》，EM 也刚刚开始制作一个新的播客系列，该系列由澳大利亚研究所制作，以美国命名，所以我想这取决于选举结果，这意味着什么，Emma 今晚将与 Joe 和 Malcolm 进行对话，因此，事不宜迟，Emma 博士，谢谢您，谢谢 Richard，嗯，没什么好说的，我想我们会努力填补时间，我们澳大利亚人当然一直在关注美国这次选举周期，心里有一种越来越强烈的不安感，我想正如 Michael 所说，我们都有点害怕，也许，也许这已经过去了在过去一周左右，哈里斯竞选总统的热情和喜悦似乎有所缓和，但根本的事实是，对美国民主的真正威胁和支撑我们与美国关系的共同价值观仍然存在，而且这些根本威胁非常真实，所以我们在这里思考联盟的状态，选举对我们和世界的影响，我想你知道，至少很明显，特朗普团结了全世界有思想的人，我希望，我希望这里有一个机会，让这些新的联盟在澳大利亚发展，让我们对我们最重要的安全关系和我们在世界上的角色有新的思考，但我们必须从美国开始，乔，你的新书叫做《自由之路》，现在的竞选活动似乎越来越多地涉及自由的相互竞争的理念，甚至被竞选活动赋予了音乐形式，所以特朗普在他的集会上经常会唱一首名为《上帝保佑美国》的歌，以及那种胜利的歌词是

我宁愿做美国人，因为至少我知道我是自由的，所以这种对自由的消极个人主义看法

另一方面，哈里斯刚刚发布了她的第一则竞选广告，以碧昂斯的《自由》为背景音乐，碧昂斯的歌曲《自由》很重要，碧昂斯不允许很多人使用她的歌曲，歌词是我也需要自由我也需要

现在你的书关注的是自由与不平等的关系，我们对自由的看法，以及这种看法可能如何受到不平等的影响，或者不是，所以我想首先问你，美国的经济停滞和不平等在多大程度上解释了特朗普的崛起和持续突出地位，你认为这些相互竞争的美国自由观念在这次选举中有多重要，是的，首先，能来到这里，在这么漂亮的房间里，能再次和大家在一起，我真是太好了，我想，我写这本书的部分原因是，我认为自由问题会在这场运动中扮演重要角色，我的出版商在五个月内帮助我出版了这本书，这对出版商来说很不寻常，因为他们知道这场运动，而且自由问题可能会发挥作用，你说得很好，我在书中表达的自由观是做某事的自由，所以濒临饥饿的人实际上没有任何自由去做任何事情，他只能做他必须做的事情来生存，在我看来，民主的很多方面都是提高个人做事的能力，让他们发挥自己的潜力，我认为最重要的自由是生活的自由the most important Freedom the freedom to live

What's happening in the United States? | Joseph Stiglitz Speaking Tour - Sydney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WNbsV7jVHA

The Australia Institute 2024年8月14日

Nobel Prize-winning economist Professor Joseph Stiglitz, in conversation with the Hon. Malcolm Turnbull AC, 29th Prime Minister of Australia & Dr Emma Shortis, senior researcher International & Security Affairs at the Australia Institute on the future of Australia's relationship with the United States.

Professor Joseph Stiglitz is visiting Australia as a guest of the Australia Institute, as part of our 30th anniversary celebrations in 2024.

[Applause]

oh welcome everybody I'm Richard Dennis executive director of the Australia Institute and what a what a wonderful

room to have such a wonderful conversation in tonight so uh I'll be back in a minute to talk to you but uh

let me first start by welcoming and what I'd like you all to do is turn your phones off I I organized

that seamlessly for the prompt uh but I'm just really honored to introduce Uncle Michael west from the Metropolitan

local Aboriginal land Council he's born and raised and lived his whole life here in Sydney's Aboriginal communities he's

a member of the stolen generations and if you want to know more about him uh he'll tell you a bit about his journey

tonight um Michael's had a various a variety of previous roles including a director of New South Wales indigenous

Chamber of Commerce uh a director of The Strain Communications consumer Action Network and co-chair of national sorry

Day committee so please join me in welcoming Uncle [Applause] [Music]

Michael how's everyone looking forward to this talk no doubt I'm looking forward to it too um I

was uh talking to someone from the library as I was driving here and about the subject tonight what's happening in

the united stat what's not happening one might say yes I mean it's been about Crazy 8

years or whatever hasn't it um when you think about it um yes um the pandemic

telling people to inject yourself a bleach probably not a good idea and then you see the health

officials shocked in the background and then you have to put warnings out St um Countrywide please don't inject yourself

or drink bleach it's not a solution um yes I was going to say here where we

are's beautiful gatle country and we have the most beautiful Harbor in the world don't we we're lucky to have that

and um what I was going to say I I talk about here where we are is gadigal

obviously cam regle's the other side of the code hanger we have wangal as we head Inland on our left if we're

paddling out there um on our right Walla migle obviously rers and vanal Along being a a partner of a strong camaga

woman named bangaroo um where we have a piece of land named after her and we also have where the opera house named

after balong where he had his place and then we keep going we have param which is bar

in our language we have the so um other languages have that too the Welsh language so bar means e and there's a

whole beautiful creation story about Sydney Harbor and the Water waste being created by a giant Bara which is now

just resting off of um East belmain there's a little island called ml or

memo um also known as Goat Island but it's real name is mammal it's some it's

transitioning back to the L Council on a long journey um what I was going to say too is our

totems are very important we lost them a few a few years ago lot billions of them a few years ago um with the fires that

we had those um firestorms and um our totems are very important to us Wales would come in here

is part of the totems of the gigle there's also engraving over at the um coal loader beautiful whale engraving

and they would have different names the whale will have different names up and down the coast as it's journeying with

their little calves and they would actually come in here to gomra which is darling Harbor for their rest but

unfortunately they can't um they got the boat show down there this there now but and other things but I would I I was

thinking about that the other day wouldn't it be great if they come in here and rest but they can't anymore but

they do come in and visit I'm sure it's in their memory over many many Millennia coming in here and um I was going to say

there's a there's a beautiful bird that's um has uh white feathers black

tail feathers it has a long neck and a long beak um it's called The Sacred Ibis

uh don't call me a Ben chicken thanks I'm the sacred IUS just as an Egyptian culture has the sacred IIs it's very

important to remember that and it actually I was talking to some of the other Elders the other day and we having a conversation about this it actually

has a parallel with abigal people when you think about it what do you think that

is cuz it's been dispossessed of its country it's it's a wetland bird it's a

beautiful bird um it's kept me sane through the pandemic I could go out and see a little community of them probably

to the to the wall there and um seeing them their little babies and I was I think because I respect them and that

I've been lucky privileged to see one of their um young ones with a very small beak in my front yard and the parents

looking after it cuz they are monogamous and um what I was going to say they may

be going through bins and they may look a little bit dirty but it's not their fault it's actually on the humans fault cuz we haven't cared for their country

and they're just trying to survive and um and as I said look they've been

dispossessed of their land we have of ours and um they've been blamed for their situation as so as we so we need

to be intelligence humans and intelligence Australians and um make

sure that we have a a proper Road forward in reconciliation and um we can

do better we're a very rich first world country and we have people living in third world conditions and we can do a lot better I

know there was the referendum last year didn't go the way original people wanted but we had 6 and a half million people

vote for us um there's a lot more education to be done a lot more truth telling I think and that'll change

people's minds and change people's heart and um what I was going to say it's important we take a moment silence to

pay respects to ancestors pay respect to Mother Earth um pay respect to those who've lost along the way they're not

just numbers they're people who have their own dreams their own families their own communities their own names and then also uh it's important to pay

respect to all ABS TOS rad on tradish owners elders and custodians of past and present for looking after country spirit

of country and culture and as an Australian you have responsibly look after that um we have those 40,000 year

old fish traps in New South Wales at bar and the 40,000 plus year old burial

sites with men and women with um ceremony andoko and that so um

if we have a moment's silence a moment of paying respect the moment of reflection Journey here right now and a

moment of centering

ourselves we have those three beautiful Rivers Don't We that are boundaries of the oration we have the Hawks spre nepan

and Georges um on behalf of Metropolitan local Abal land Council our elders and our members welcome everyone here

tonight I'm sure it's going to be a very interesting conversation um yes what does the future

hold I guess Turn the Page um yes and uh we'd like to say look everyone let's all

work and walk together and have those honest conversations and Truth telling that we need to and um being here I was

actually here for this library for this Auditorium opening and um I've been here

many times and I think when I come to the State Library here uh there's a lot

it was a place where original people I guess were also um not included and there's some sensitive material here but

what's great about the State Library I know the last year we opened up a special room for Abal toyr onto people

uh that could go there and read material um in a sensitive and culturally Safe Way and that's what we've got to do be

sensible um understand each other's culture and we want you to also remain

strong in your identity in your culture it's so important I think we've learned that the last few years through this pandemic um always was always will be AB

your land never seated um let's all respect each other let's respect the animals let's respect the IIs and let's

respect um if they had a bit more respect I think around the world in some of the places where we see um and a bit

more love in their hearts I think would be uh we'd have a far better World wouldn't we um maybe some of them some

of the people need a big hug too I think I think they do um enjoy the night and

I'm sure it's going to be an interesting conversation um I'm sort of a bit scared

and looking forward to what the future holds in America thank [Applause]

[Music]

you thank you so much Michael and again thanks everyone for coming along it's a it's a really special night for us at

the Australia Institute our 30th Anniversary this year 30 years of uh trying to put Big Ideas uh into

Australia's national debate and uh a night like tonight uh is is just a

wonderful way to both do that and to celebrate that so uh so thank you to to

everyone for coming along tonight thanks to our donors in the room uh look around and look at all the other people that uh

uh that are here listening thanks to you so I really appreciate it and uh and tonight uh and indeed Professor stig's

uh trip is in part supported by the uh Andrew faren foundation so very thank

you very much to Andrew Look let me get straight down to business there's going to be I reckon a bit to talk about

tonight uh our our our first guest is of course Professor Joseph stiglets uh Joe

is former Chief Economist at the World Bank Nobel prize winning Economist uh chair of the US Council of Economics

advisor under advisors under President Bill Clinton Joe's uh professor of

Economics at Columbia University business school and to say he's had an

impact on the economics community and indeed the economics debate is just an incredible understatement so uh can we

start with just welcoming Professor

[Music] s Joe was only out here two years ago uh

as a guest of the Australian Institute it's just amazing to have him back again um our next guest tonight is of course

Malcolm turble um uh Malcolm was our 29th prime minister had a career in law

and business and the media before going into politics uh obviously uh Malcolm's

had some interesting engagements with the us over the years which I suspect might even be discussed tonight uh

including having negotiated with President Obama uh a deal to take refugees to the US one that President

Trump of course had some views about um and of course Malcolm also played a role

in Reviving The transpacific partnership or the TPP as it was called after the United States withdrew which if we think

about it given Donald Trump's approach to trade at the moment uh there's some

history repeating itself there so can we please join Malcolm turble for speaking [Applause]

tonight it's really an honor to have you here thank you Malcolm and then finally uh Dr Emma shis is leads our

International Security Affairs program at the Australia Institute Emma's an historian a writer uh she's written a

wonderful book about Australia's relationship with America called our exceptional friend Australia's fatal

alliance with the United States uh and EM was also uh just started a new

podcast series that were produced at the Australian Institute called after America um so I guess it depends on the

election result what that means uh anyway Emma will be uh will be taking

Joe and Malcolm through a conversation tonight so with no further Ado over to you Dr Emma shes thank you thank you

Richard um not much to talk about I think we'll struggle to fill the

time we we here in Australia have of course been watching this election cycle

in the United States with a growing sense of unease I think as Michael said we're we're all a little bit scared

Perhaps Perhaps that has been tempered a little bit in the last week or so um with the joy and enthusiasm that seems

to have infused the Harris campaign for the nomination but the fundamental truth of

those real and active threats to American democracy and the shared values

that underpin our relationship with the United States those fundamental threats remain and they are very real

so we're here to think about the state of the alliance the implications of the election for us and for the world and I

think you know if nothing else it's clear here that that Trump unites thinking people all over the world and

there I hope I hope there is an opportunity here

in that for those new alliances to grow for new thinking here in Australia about our most important security relationship

and our role in the world but we have to start of course in the United States how could we not Joe your new book is called

the road to freedom and the campaign the election campaign now seems to be increasingly about competing ideas of

Freedom that's even been given musical form by the campaigns so so Trump will

at his rallies often come on stage to a song called God Bless the USA and and the kind of triumphal line in that is

I'd rather be an American because at least I know I'm free so the very kind of negative individualistic perception

of Freedom Harris on the other hand has just released her first uh campaign ad

which has Beyonce's Freedom as the soundtrack The Beyonce song Freedom which is a big deal Beyonce doesn't let

many people use her songs and the line is that is I need Freedom too I need

Freedom too now your book focuses on the relationship between freedom and

inequality our perception of freedom and how that's perhaps informed or Not by inequality so I wanted to begin by

asking you how much economic stag stagnation and inequality in the United

States explains the rise and and the continued prominence of trump and and how important you think those competing

ideas of freedom in America will be in this election yeah well first it's so

wonderful to be here and to be in such a beautiful room and and to be uh with all

of you again um I think uh the I wrote

the book partly uh because I thought the issue of Freedom would be a big one in

the campaign and uh my publisher was uh uh very helpful in getting the book out

in about five months which is very unusual for for a publisher because they

were aware you know of of the campaign and that uh this issue of Freedom uh

would potentially play a role and you put it well saying uh the the view of

Freedom that I articulate in the book is is freedom to do something so somebody

who's on a point of starvation really doesn't have any freedom to do anything he does what he has to do to survive and

that um a lot of what I view is a democratic agender

has been to enhance individuals capacity to do things they you know to live up to

their potential um to have uh uh you know

consider the most important Freedom the freedom to live uh if you

don't uh uh if we hadn't had the vaccine uh from covid-19 many of us

might not be here and our freedom would have been taken away and uh that needed

government to do the basic research of developing a uh mRNA platform and

bringing the drug to Market and that enhanced our freedom but having that freedom

meant uh we had to pay taxes to support that so you took away a little freedom

but overall as you look at that enh taking away a little Freedom by saying

you have to pay a little bit of taxes is uh di Minimus relative to the freedom to

live and that sort of model is really uh all over uh if you want to think of

another example um the uh that I talk about in my book is um stop likes

traffic likes uh take away your freedom you can't move until you have a green

light but if you live in a place like New York or London or Sydney if you

didn't have any stop likes you would have grock and nobody could move so a

little bit of restriction of freedom to say you have to take terms actually gives everybody more freedom than they

otherwise would have had so the the notion is in a in in our uh complicated

integrated Society where we interact all together we have to understand that one

person's Freedom can be another person's unfreedom and that we have a collective

decision to make in balancing these freedoms it's not obvious in some cases it's not obvious how you balance it but

in the examples I've just given it's pretty obvious and so what I think uh

the Democratic vision is that that we ought to have uh intelligent debates

about this and some cases will'll be easy and other cases we may not fully

agree and we those will be continued part of the elector process but that the

Republican view doesn't make any sense that to put it

bluntly uh that uh you know even the notion you know some of this outside the

United States should seem obvious um the freedom to carry a

gun uh means that you wind up with a country where every little kid has to in

kindergarten and first grade get training what to do if a gunman enters

your your your classroom and so they lose a basic freedom freedom from

fear and so many of them every day lose their lives because some you know almost

daily there's been a mass shooting so again you're taking away the freedom to live which is the most important Freedom

so my view is that this and I wrote the book because I thought the Republican

concept of absolute freedom makes absolutely no sense and that I'm trying

to promote here A A broader view of of that concept now whether

the debate will get uh elevated to the level where they they that kind of discourse I don't know I'm not sure I

think it may be in much more you know especially with Trump and Vance running

it may be a much more Elemental discussion than a discussion of the kind

I've just described I think Sor unfortunately Malcolm turning turning

now to Australia in in the context of Joe's comments and the rise of trump and

Vance and and the very clear threat that they to American Democratic institutions

which they've reminded us again Trump has just reminded Us in the last 24 hours by telling a group of Christian

nationalists to get out and vote they need to vote this time and then in four years they they won't need to again you

know so he's not he's not hiding the ball shall we say there has been a a quite a

conversation in Australia about how we might and our government in particular might approach a second Trump

Administration in in the context of of that threat and there there have been several kind of moments in the recent

history of that discussion that have degenerated into quite a kind of fical

discussion so the one that stands out to me is when uh Nigel farage interviewed Donald Trump and you know made those

comments about Kev Ambassador Kevin rud you know when Donald Trump clearly didn't know who he was talking about but

made a few comments and the Australian media exploded about how you know how

would this Ambassador who's criticized Donald Trump be able to do his job during a second Trump Administration but

what was what was lost in all of that that the criticisms rud had made were about the threat that Donald Trump posed

to American democracy and there wasn't much that I saw at least in the coverage

of that arguing that actually that's what our ambassador should be doing they should be standing up for the Integrity

of American democracy and be proud particularly of American Democratic Values so in in that context and and the

discussion that we are having about the alliance now here in Australia what do you think Australia's

interests are in the alliance well I mean the United States

is our major Ally in a you a you know military defense context but also our ties to the

United States our connections are you know so numerous you know they they're

complex it's families it's cultural it's business it's historical there are so

many um and but here's the thing just pivoting

to the politics of it there is a tendency in Australian

politics to want to outdo each other in sucking up to the Americans

and and I have to say it is it is it's it's by and large bipartisan um uh the

um I don't I won't go through all the cringeworthy examples but

um I've I've I mean there some people like Lori there who've known me for a

long time uh I've never been very good at sucking up to people I have to say

but but um and I and I don't think I'll develop a interest in it in my old age

but I think people forget Australians forget that in the imperial capital they

regard difference as their due so if you go to Washington or indeed to Beijing or

in the old days to London and you you know groble and Carry

On and suck up they just say oh that's great is it time for the next siant Sur

surely he's had his surely he's had his 10 minutes of sucking up it is crazy you

win no respect at all and of course with Trump who is like the ultimate narcissistic you know blustering bully

it is the worst possible thing to do now I was very lucky with Trump in this

sense that I my first engagement with him or enragement with him to use a uh

Joe diglet fabulous Joe diglet word that he often uses about Fox News uh was uh

uh over a over this you know I mean all these everyone here knows about it was you know over a deal I'd done with Obama

that Trump wanted to reene on anyway and we had a Hu blazing R where I basically

said you've got to stick to your word you know and Trump said come on Malcolm you know you're a businessman you must

have reneged on Deal said no no no he did he did that's exact exactly

what he said said no no I said ask your friends we've got friends in common I'm you know my of you know my reputation is

being a man of my word I've got lots of other bad things people say about me but people generally haven't said that I'm

untrustworthy in that regard so so I've made this point to Trump anyway and he so the conversation began no way Jose

and ended up yes I hate you yes but I hate you basically so he did he said it was he said the call was worse than the

one he had with Putin although as I later learned when I saw them together he really loves Putin

so so it's a bit complex but the point is by standing up to Trump and not you

know doing what i' what they were American side were back you know back channeling us to not raise the issue I

won his respect and I was able to get some very good outcomes for Australia and so you know I you read all

this stuff particularly in the Murdoch press about how you've got to have an ambassador that sucks up to Trump and

you've got to flatter him that is all believe me I mean I I promise

you there are a lot of leaders at the time Trump came in who did exactly that and they got

nothing the you know the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them

and the thing that an Australian prime minister knows when they go into a room

with an American president is that they're the one person in the White House the president can't

fire so all his staff all his staff they've all got it theyve got to be

careful because the boss can go oh I'm sick of you telling me what I don't want to hear you're out okay and that's what

Trump does but if you're the Prime Minister of Australia the only people that can sack you are your colleagues

back home which of course you know I'm I'm very familiar I'm very familiar with

the process but the but the but so it's really important it's really important

for uh Australia to engage uh you know from a position of strength I mean you

do there is a complexity there I'll just conclude on this point that albanesi has to recognize and I had to too that the

sort of right-wing media ecosystem here Mo mostly News Corp but not entirely um is basically Trump is at now

the central sort of Avatar of that of that universe and so if an austr so they

you know disagreement between austral Australian prime minister and Donald Trump they will side with Trump yeah so

but that's but that is no reason to do anything other than be absolutely strong

Play Straight bat and of course needless to say the last thing uh and I look I

Trump got really bad press when he when he had this tantrum with me it really

did not help him and I think he was very conscious of that um uh as far as our

ambassador you know our the Australian government appoints the Australian ambassador to Washington and

just like the American government points the American ambassador to cber and uh the idea that you'd be uh taking

direction from the white houses to who our ambassador should be I mean declaring an ambassador Persona nonr is

a big deal that's the kind of thing you do to the you know the Russians when they're spying on you or something so

that isn't going to happen so you know albow whatever people think of Kevin and

you know I've had an up and down relationship with him we're currently in love again you know

but it's been it's been sort of it's been patchy I'd have to say uh but uh but the alvany should stick stick with

Rod and you know and he'll you know and and just be very strong and play a straight bat that's what he's got to

do we we'll come back to much of that I think um Joe I think it it's fairly safe

to say that a hypothetical second Trump Administration would be quite different from the first given given what we know

of of the plans you know behind his campaign given that and and given the

polling you know given it still certainly possible that that Trump could win how do you think Americans should be

preserving and strength strengthening their own Democratic institutions and and do countries like

Australia have a role to play in that yeah so uh we're all praying uh and

and uh I am very hopeful uh by uh what's happened in the last last week and and

uh you know she's uh Kema is clear a good campaigner so um

but I think uh your question is really on spot the the the uh it's it's very

clear that there's a fragility to our to to our democracy and uh I think

uh there are several aspects of what has been happening that are institutional

and then there are some that are related to policy so institutionally I think you know when we were uh kids we were taught

that our Founders 200 and some years ago in uh

1789 uh got a message from heaven and figured out how to design the uh optimal

democratic system and we now know that they didn't quite get it all right and

you know it it was a step forward from where they had been and not that that much you know there have been some

thinking uh about how do you create Democratic institutions but they hadn't got it uh quite right and I think um

Australia has done uh a number of things that I think are are uh better in terms

of of uh Democratic uh institutions one of them is uh mandatory

voting um I I I think

that's uh the second one is what we call rank order voting you have another name

called preferential preferential voting um and if the US had had rank order

voting Trump would not have been on the ballot in the first uh election in

2016 it's that failure that led him to be on uh to be a candidate uh and and a

lot of the the outcomes uh that we've had that are so perverse in so many

districts of the extreme right would not have existed and it would have changed

the the party Dynamics inside the United States so rank order uh voting is a is a

second important uh thing uh third uh I

I think that um uh first post first pass

the post institutions uh especially in the context of uh a country where you can

have um uh uh change the

districts um in in ways that you can 25%

can get 50% of the votes 50% of the seats in in the uh uh

uh parliament in Congress so um Jerry mandering is really

rampant and um you know another flaw we

have not to list all the flaws uh the Supreme Court in the United States has

uh some obvious uh problems but one example in this context it is said uh it

said that it it Jerry mandering was not necessarily a

bad thing and it delegated responsibility for overseeing whether it

was to the stakes where there's gerrymandering so it it said Jerry

Mander Stakes should decide whether Jerry mandering is a bad thing well uh

you know it was such an absurd decision that really you know called into question the logic uh of of of the

Supreme Court so I mean I think those are all examples of you know we were

talking before that that Jerry manding doesn't you know the how you allocate

you can design institutions that are uh rise above politics and in designing the

districts and uh uh it's not something that can't be solved and you've solved

it uh so to me or I mean that done a lot better than we have so so I guess what

what I'm saying is all those are examples of things on on Democratic um process Democratic

institutions where where I think that that uh we have something to learn from

Australia on on the policy side um I

think what and this relates to your first question that I didn't fully answer um I think the uh fact that we've

allowed inequality to grow to the extent that it has has

uh provided a fertile field for populism and particularly for

the authoritarian version of populism it it wasn't inevitable but uh it it

created a fertile uh field and we were just very unlucky to have uh Donald

Trump arise uh at that moment and uh it

you know I I don't think it was inevitable but maybe there was a a high likelihood that somebody like him would

arise and and present the kinds of problems that we now have yeah

absolutely um I suppose to just continue that Malcolm of course you mentioned Fox

News and and we've talked about misinformation a little bit and and by far I think the most important and

influential person in Australia's relationship with the United States is of course rert Murdoch there have been

stories in the um there's a story in the New York Times this week about his maneuvering to keep his Empire his media

Empire in Fox News in particular as a that conservative Bastion after he dies

and and that story which I I highly recommend you read bury the lead a little bit in that it had a line in

there about how former Trump attorney general Bill bar is the one leading that charge to to keep that um Empire

conservative um would you speak a little bit I think about the

the danger of of that Murdoch Empire to democracy and and the critical role that

media as an inst ution should play in in Dem democracies yeah well I I I don't

think there's a anyone alive that has done any individual person alive who's done more damage to the United States

than ripert Murdoch uh I think the uh um and in some I think he's done more

damage to the United States than he has to Australia frankly partly because of the reasons Joe described that we've got

a a political electoral system which all the features which Joe related you know

no Jerry mandering preferential voting compulsory voting we've had for 100 years so there's literally nobody alive

today can take credit for it's amazing uh and uh but someone someone would try

to No Doubt uh but uh but the but the point is I mean you know what M Murdoch

is in the Ang attainment business and he is as Joe great word of Joe's I used it

before he doesn't just his media doesn't engage with its audience it enrages its audience that's what it's designed to do

rile people up and it's that that's their business model and so you saw that

the business model extends to lying so we saw that I mean the reason they shelled out nearly 900 million Us in

Damages in the Dominion voting machine case was because it was demonstrated

that they had continued to propagate the lie that the 2020 election had been

stolen when they knew it was a lie because they they believed Their audience wanted to be lied

to and the most consequential lie I would say told in American politics in

modern times I mean it it led to it created the context in which you had an

attempted cetar me you know we shouldn't mince words I mean this was this was not a a

group of innocent tourists who suddenly got a bit riled up stormed the capital

you know they were wanting to find the vice president not so they could reprimand him for his political views

but so they could hang him I mean we shouldn't you know this is this has all been airbrushed out partly by the media

because it's all too horrible to contemplate uh and as far as the the legal case in Nevada well I mean if you

say Trump's arrival and the events relating to him demonstrate that you

know Adam saen and the other writers of West Wing lacked a imagination uh you'd

have to say that this court case demonstrates that the writers of succession lack sufficient imagination

too I mean Rupert's uh you know Family Trust basically leaves his four children

uh uh by his first wife and his second wife but not the the um the two youngest

ones uh the four TR so the two women prudence and Elizabeth and the sons Lan

and James have basically got an equal say uh and Rupert's trying to get that

trust altered this uh unalterable trust so that lan can be assured of being

solely in charge and his argument for doing so says only lan can be relied

upon to keep Fox News in particular as

hard right conservative as Rupert says it should be

and his argument I think is so specious but who knows I mean as I said they've

got the former Attorney General making it for them his argument is that that's in the best interest of the other

children because that is how they make the most money so in other words in

other words the proposition is the proposition is it you know the the I

mean lawyers will say anything for money I suppose but they but you but the proposition is they've got to stand up

and say for a straight face you're on a uh it is in the interests of my

opponents that my client Lan has sole control of this and is able to freely

Pander to Prejudice anger and resentment and to freely tell

lies because that's what the audience wants and so we need the court to ensure

that under some bizarre sense of responsibility your idealism these other children of Mr

Murdoch don't try to influence these media Outlets to tell the

truth or present a what could be termed reality-based

news and that is literally that is the argument that's being prevent presented in Nevada and so it just reminds you of

the wisdom of uh Mark Twain when he said um only fiction has to be credible

Jo we we've spoken quite a bit about the implications of the election um

domestically uh in terms of media um and for Australia but of course there are

Global implications um for for everybody else and and one of the few areas it

seems of bipartisan consensus now in the United States is around China and the

the American approach to China China so Biden has pursued some quite protectionist policies when it comes to

uh China and we know that Trump and JD Vance in particular have quite

belligerent views of of China as um particularly JD Vance China as

existential threat that that must be counted and some of the architecture behind that campaign even calls for

complete economic decoupling with China so a has some fairly radical

implications for the rest of the world a alongside the potential dismantling of the Global Financial

system minor things is is the age of of free trade

over and and what might that mean for the rest of the world well I I think the age of free

trade is over um the more broadly neoliberalism as a was known it it it

had a 40-year Reign bad idea lasted a

long time uh but I think I think I think it is over and uh ex been killed in in

some ways bipartisan um the um um in a way um

uh the US uh taking the role uh bipartisan again of not appointing

judges to the W WTO meant that disputes were not can't be resolved and the

argument that the US uh basically has is uh this court that

we uh put in to resolve disputes has

found us guilty and therefore it's illegitimate and so we have to end the

court and get a court that always rules in favor of us and uh the other

countries in the world are not so sure that they agree that this is the the right way of running a court system so

um there is a fundamental problem I think uh at the WTO uh the uh from the point of view of

a lot of developing countries Emerging Markets um the US position I think uh

for good reason of for uh of of having industrial

policies uh that for 40 years the US criticized other countries for having

industrial policies all of the sudden we're spending you know the IRA is now

estimated to be over $1 trillion doll and I don't know if you guys know that

it's a big that's a lot of money uh even even in Australia I think um and uh the

chips and science Act is another uh $250 billion so so us has massive industrial

policies and um other countries even Europe is saying we can't we can't match those

subsidies and we say well that's your problem uh so the whole architecture of

of prade has really been upended and and it it is uh bi bipartisan and uh

uh it's not going to be easy to put together again but let me say that

there's a there is a very big difference between Trump and the Democrats on uh

attitudes towards China and attitudes towards globalization more

generally uh I think the Democrats uh

understand that you need Global cooperation to address Global issues like climate

change and pandemics we you know we don't the Democrats uh know that climate

change is a global issue that's a reality pandemics we've had a one

pandemic everybody believes that we'll have another one and we will need

cooperation and so um the Democrats are trying to dance

a a a very difficult uh line here where

they um are being quite hon you know

very harsh with China uh but want China to

cooperate uh on issues like pandemics and climate change and whether that will

work out is is hard to see but uh they say we're only going to impose a 10%

tariff on China and um uh uh Trump says

he's going to impose a 50% uh tariff and

part of the balancing that the Democrats are doing is not only how it will affect

global cooperation but also what it will do to the economy to to inflation and

and 50% is viewed to be you know that's a shock to the system 10% our system can

can adapt to so while while the're both they're both taking strong stances on

China and uh not uh for anything that

China so far has done so far but because

they worry that China will do something and China you know president X said he's

going to take over Taiwan and we think that's not a good thing so he's announced that he's going to do

something so there's a legitimate reason for us to to be concerned and to I think

to engage in drisking um the the the the

intensity in both parties but especially in the Republicans is hard to justify is Malcolm speaking of drisking

and a lot of money does all of the particularly Joe's

comments about China does all of this mean that the Australian government should still be pursuing the or orcus

submarine PCT well well that's uh yeah I well let

me no I'm just I'm just I I think the the pillar one of orcus which is which

is really what it's is the main thing you know which is about the submarines I think was a catastrophic decision um uh

that Morrison made and I think um I think it was a I think it was um a

terrible shame that albanesi and the labor party went along with it and uh

and look I I just just explain the the my my reasoning for that and it's really got this has got nothing to do with my

critique has got nothing to do with China um the the proposition

was uh Morrison's proposition was which albanes adopted was to acquire uh

submarines which had nuclear propulsion and you know the argument for that is they can stay underwater for longer and

well they can basically stay under water pretty much forever as long as the the crew's got enough to you know baked

beans to eat or whatever but but it is but so it's really it's their endurance is limited by the endurance of the crew

not the you know they don't need to come to the surface to recharge their batteries Etc you I guess everyone

understands that but the the the fundamental problem with this is that

this represents an complete abandonment of Australian sovereignty now I have to

say I was you know I was Prime Minister of Australia and I don't think I mean when I was PM when Abbott was PM as far

as I know when rod and Gillard were PM Howard was PM Australian sovereignty was really

important uh and but it doesn't seem to be important in the way it used to be

you see basically the reason we did not opt for

Naval nuclear propulsion in the partnership we had with France which we were completely in control of we were

building sub going to build the subs in Australia we had all the technology had been transferred Etc had been a thorough

you know bureaucratic process assessing you know which which contended to go for

uh the reason we hadn't gone for Naval nuclear propulsion was because we don't have a nuclear industry in Australia and

and it would take us many years to be able to manage Naval nuclear propulsion

ourselves uh so we could have we could have you know uh evolved to that in

partnership with France because France's submarines are in fact uh do use nuclear

reactors to P them but interestingly they do not use weapons grade uranium in

them they use what's called Low enriched uranium which is enriched to the same level as that you'd find in a civilian

Power Station uh so in that sense it's it's much more manageable but the problem

with the orcus pillar one deal is that as you know we are supposed to be getting uh Virginia class submarines in

the early 2030s from the Americans uh three pop to five

and then at some point in the 2040s an as yet undesigned nuclear powered submarine

will be built in partnership with Britain but that is like that's so far off it's you know it is way way way off

I do not believe we will ever get any nuclear submarines from the Americans uh and the reason for that has got nothing

to do with Donald Trump this is why the deal is so bad because we have no agency we have no we've got no Leverage

essentially in the United States Navy the most valuable strategic assets are

their Virginia class submarines their attack submarines called ssns and they are valuable because of

their lethality but also their survivability as you've observed from the you know experience of the Russian

Navy in the Black Sea surface vessels are more vulnerable than ever so what do we know about the

virginas the American Navy is short at between 17 and 20 short of what they believe they

need their industry is producing half as many as they

need it is the most valuable and survivable asset and the

legislation relating to this deal the American legislation says that before any submarine can be sold to Australia

the US president has to certify that their Navy doesn't need it

competitive rivalry with China is increasing so you know what what's Trump

got on on on the tin you know America first and that's what and you know I I'm

sure you know I'm not the only former politician here tonight you know as Paul keading once said in the great race of

life always backs self-interest because you know it's trying and that applies that that that applies in politics more

than anywhere else and so the reality is we won't get yet the Americans will not

part with the Virginia class submarines they will and they'll say nothing they saying you aies you took the risk you

saw the legislation we can only give them to you if uh we don't need them and

so what we are going to end up doing is apparently continue sending billions of dollars to the Americans to support the

submarine industrial boat we are we are we're sending billions of dollars over there to their industrial base we're

building a nuclear submarine base in Perth which out of which American

submarines will rotate I think there'll be lots of young Australian Sailors will serve on American submarines but we will

not have any subs and the the that is a scenario that is being actively you can

read all about it in the Congressional Research Services paper on orcus it's uh sort of called a a you know military

partnership and the proposition is that Australia has no submarines at all uh the Americans look after us and we spend

money that we would have otherwise spent on submarines and something else so this great submarine deal in my judgment is

almost most certainly going to result in us having no submarines it is a it's a terrible terrible mistake uh but uh it

is um everyone calls for bipartisanship and politics but sometimes if people are

bipartisan in their era it's not a good thing

[Applause] Joe I think this might have to be my

final question but in here in Australia there there has been for a long time this bipartisan consensus that our

relationship with the United States is necessary for our security so the the Orca submarine deal is is part of that

that you know it is absolutely necessary to protect Australia from threat I and

others would would argue that actually more often than not Australia's relationship ship with the United States makes us less safe and I I wonder how do

you think particularly in the context of of your book how do you think countries

like Australia can keep ourselves and and others safe where where does

security really come from well I I guess I I'd say um there

is uh conflict in the world you know and and and uh we thought uh there would

never be a land war in Europe and we Russia invaded uh

Ukraine um uh China has not uh uh been

aggressive uh outside very aggressive outside its boundaries but but it has

announced as I said before that it's going to take over Taiwan I don't think it probably is going to reach down to

Australia but but one never knows how you know over the long run how how these

things evolve uh but I do think there's a there is a a fundamental conflict between

democracies broadly understood and fragile as they may be uh and these

authoritarian regimes and uh so I think there is a need for collective

security and um you know I was uh somewhat skeptical

about the expansion of NATO in Europe whether it was uh threatening to Russia

and whether that was would provoke Russia after seeing what Russia did I

I'm very convinced that they would have done that whether we had encircled them or not and that uh

Estonia laia uh Lithuania are really glad they joined uh and Poland and we

are too that they're really that that that NATO expanded and I think that um

you know why should you might say that kind of Alliance be limited to the Atlantic it's really now a

global a global issue so I do think that we need Global Security Arrangements you

know is as yeah um again I I i' in the past I was very critical of us uh

spending on Military uh and I still am uh critical

of the way we spend it you know I've said we we we were spending money uh on

weapons that didn't work against enemies that didn't exist um and uh uh we were

spending uh a lot of money on weapons that didn't work but now I realize that

that there are enemies that do exist and that we unfortunately do need to have

military uh spending and there there is a real need for Global cooperation on

security um uh but uh it is also the case that um

especially with Trump um as uh Malcolm said uh he doesn't

believe agreements uh have any you know a contract is just a piece of paper that

you sign and and uh hopefully you dup the other guy uh and and you know he

part he expects you to to break the contract and so he doesn't feel guilty

when he breaks it because he believed that you that you knew that he was going to break

it so uh so that means that you live in a world actually without contracts and

with and globally one of the big differences between domestics domestic

life and international life there's no real enforcement of contracts uh

internationally and that reality is something one really has to understand

and it means that to some extent uh it's always going to be uh

enforcement is going to be limited to self-interest but when you have good

leaders it's self-interested broadly understood to mean that you're going to be going on in a long-term relationship

and the nature of trump is that he doesn't understand that broad he's

transactional it's it's only for the moment and it's no long you know there's no long term so um I think you

if God forbid Trump got elected you you have to deal with that reality of of

that kind of of uh world but over the long term hopefully America will have

leaders that understand this the nature of what I've just

described and uh Australia and the rest of the

Free World uh can can and uh

develop relationships that are based on that kind of global

cooperation um and let me just say one more thing uh which is we've been

fighting um this kind of new Cold War without paying any attention to most

of the third world to the Emerging Markets or developing countries and

actually undertaking policies that are really adverse to them and

actually you know couldn't be worse policies for losing that that that war so for

instance during the pandemic uh we had policies that led to

vaccine aparte um we used the

WTO it it was become it was dysfunction except for one thing the role that the

WTO played in denying access to vaccines to poor

countries um and so that is the great achievement of our International Trade architecture um so so I think and and

you know I could give you other examples that that right now there's a big discussion going on about reforming the

multinational um uh tax system and and the oecd has made a

proposal that in effect uh

reinforces the the uh fact that the digital Giants will not

be taxed and deprives the countries where production is occurring from

getting the revenue that they ought to be getting and the developing countries

have have said we ought to move it the discussion out of the oecd where it's been captured by by big corporations and

move it into the UN may not succeed there but we know it's failed at the

oecd two-thirds of the country of the world uh said yes we should move the

discussion to the UN it's going to happen but the US used all of its muscle

to twist the arms of other countries

to oppose this so you know we lost we

used a lot of intellect a lot of a lot of capital in losing and we're not

winning the Cold War so I find it just unbelievable and this

is under a democratic Administration so you could imagine how bad it's going to be under Republican

Administration um so what what I think is to go back to your question I do

think there needs to be Global cooperation but I think we have to view this question from a global perspective

yeah absolutely um unfortunately I think we might be out of time we could keep going for hours I

know um but I will hand over to to Richard now thank you

thanks everyone you beat me to it I was going to ask you to give them a round of applause which I will in a minute but um

well what a night um and uh thank you all I mean at the Australia Institute we

been having a bit of planning and the lead up to the election and Emma and myself and a few others been coming coming up with some s of key themes that

we want to focus on and really what's really important uh and the number one

thing that came out of our discussions in terms of the how we keep our feet on the ground and what we're aiming for was

that Australia matters and then the second one is that government policy matters and I just

think you know hearing Malcolm tonight talking about the need for the Australian government the Australian

Ambassador whoever it is to to stand up for Australians I think it's terrifying

that we as a nation might ever think that we don't have agency in the world

we don't have control but we absolutely have agency and uh Australia's GDP is a

about the size of a little European country called Russia but we're not quite as optimistic

in our foreign policy thank God for that no and and in part this is because

of our sense of self our s and of course you know we need to have powerful allies we need strong allies strong

relationships but the idea that we can't kind of sail the choppy Seas without someone else is not something that

bothers Putin at night it seems uh so I'm not in any way pushing for an expansionist Australia but no

it's important that we understand that we're not a little country we've got a continent uh we we the 13th largest

economy in the world where the largest ex our our share of the iron oril Market

is bigger than opec's share of oil you didn't know that um half of the gas we sell overseas

we paid no royalt we gave away for free right we are

big we have agency and conversations like tonight hopefully challenge us to

think about how how we use that not to control things but to influence things

to shape things including shape our relationship with our close allies like the US and if we can export some of our

electoral architecture to the US rather than export Rupert Murdock

I I think the US would be in much greater shape so uh so again thank you

all for coming tonight please join me in thanking our

guests uh one one over I forgot to mention and my friend Melanie is here

she'll tried me that Joe was also so in introducing him I didn't mention was the winner of the Sydney Peace Prize so well

done Joe um and uh and and Joe's books are for sale out

there tonight if you'd like to get his latest book it is an absolutely banging read but he's not doing signings tonight

we've had him working since 8:00 this morning uh he's speaking at University of Technology tomorrow night uh we've

got a we're taking him around Australia he's got a long trip in front of him but the are for sale outside if you'd like

to get one but you won't get a signature tonight thank you all for coming thank

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