马克·海曼博士：此外，拜伦·凯蒂还有一个名为《拜伦·凯蒂播客》的精彩播客。因此，无论您在哪里收听播客，都可以找到它。您可以在 podcasts.thework.com 上了解更多信息。
马克·海曼博士：我很高兴您出生了，很高兴您经历了痛苦，找到了摆脱痛苦的方法，几十年来一直在向数百万人传授这一点。这太重要了。说实话，我以为您只有 60 岁。我甚至看不出您已经 78 岁了。您是如此充满活力、生机勃勃、头脑清醒。我感觉哇，我想要一些这样的。无论她拥有什么，我都想要。
Dr. Mark Hyman:Also, Byron Katie has an incredible podcast called The Byron Katie Podcast. So, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. You can learn more about it at podcasts.thework.com.
Dr. Mark Hyman:And I’m just so happy that you were born, happy that you had your suffering and figured out a way out of suffering and have been teaching that to millions of people for decades. It’s just so critical. Honestly, I thought you were like 60. I couldn’t even tell you were 78. You’re just so vibrant, alive and clear. I’m like wow, I want some of that. Whatever she’s having, I want that.
马克·海曼博士：一定要看看拜伦·凯蒂的书。它们都是关于生活、幸福、快乐以及如何摆脱痛苦的美妙冥想。到最后，我想我已经明白了生活的目的，我快 62 岁了。最后，我想我明白了它与自由有关。它真的是自由，精神自由、灵魂自由、情感自由、身体自由，所有这些都在我们的控制之下。你会想，哦，人们处境很糟糕，你是怎么做到的？
马克·海曼博士：人们处境艰难。但我记得读过维克多·弗兰克尔的书《追寻生命的意义》，他在书中讲述了他在奥斯维辛集中营的经历，他意识到狱警和纳粹唯一不能从他身上夺走的就是他的思想。尽管他在监狱里，但他拒绝被监禁。这是一个非常美丽的故事，它提醒我们，无论我们身在何处，无论我们身处何方，真正决定我们存在状态的是我们自己的解释和信仰、思想和心灵。
马克·海曼博士：这也让我想起了 26 岁时，我去尼泊尔进行医疗考察时，遇到了一位藏医。藏医非常有趣。我和他一起出去玩，我们有一名翻译，这个人在那里待了 22 年。他在中国古拉格集中营待了 22 年，几乎每天都遭受折磨，后来他逃离了西藏。
拜伦·凯蒂：哦，我的天哪。
马克·海曼博士：我问他：“这一切中最困难的部分是什么？”他说的话让我震惊、谦卑和震惊。他说：“最困难的部分是我觉得我可能对中国狱卒失去同情的那一刻。”我想，哇，好吧。我离那还远着呢。但如果这是真的，如果一个人能够达到那种状态，无论是集中营里的维克多·弗兰克尔还是中国古拉格集中营里的藏医，我们所有人都可以获得自由。这就是你愿意给予的。
拜伦·凯蒂：当你谈到酷刑和对他来说最难的部分时，我猜你会说，那就像他们在折磨我，我的脑海里可能会想，我希望他们不要这样对待他们。我希望他们不要继续这样对待他们。
马克·海曼博士：是的。
拜伦·凯蒂：[交谈 01:10:05] 心灵是自由的，不再是关于你。这是关于明显的肇事者，他正在对他这样做，这意味着他被困在那种无论他是否意识到都会违背自己的精神状态中。我们无法改变我们的天性，我们的天性，我们有话要说，爱、关怀、同情。但是自我会怎么想，我们的想法和信念会让我们对此感到困惑。
拜伦·凯蒂：所以，我知道有一次一个男人说他要杀了我，当时已经是深夜了。也许是凌晨两点，我不记得了。但月亮出来了，云朵飘扬。很美。显然，我在黑暗中进入了他的空间，那是在河边的沙漠里，吓坏了他。但他说他要杀了我，我当时想，我希望他不要那样对他。他真的拿着枪，扣动了扳机，我能看到月亮和天空，看到他眼中的恐惧和同情，听到河流和美丽的沙漠。谁会想念生命中的最后几分钟呢？这就是我们在过去和未来时所做的。我们想念我们的生命。我们想念我们的生命。
马克·海曼博士：哦，哇。您刚才说的话完美地概括了一切，那就是我们错过了自己的生活，因为我们生活在过去或未来，那里存在着苦难，我们错过了时刻的魔力和意义，而这些时刻总是为我们准备着。这就像哇哦，太好了。太好了。太好了。好吧，谢谢你——
拜伦·凯蒂：我们是谁，我们是什么，嗯？
马克·海曼博士：拜伦，非常感谢你来到医生的药房。这是最好的谈话，每个人都应该看看你的工作。请去了解更多关于拜伦·凯蒂的信息。下载“评判你的邻居”工作表，下载“一次一个信念”工作表。一定要看看她的作品，你可以每周查看，参与其中，你甚至可以成为她在 bk.com 上与她一起工作的人，查看她的播客，拥有她的书。她是国家的，也许是世界的宝藏。
马克·海曼博士：凯蒂，非常感谢你。我希望很快能亲自见到你。
拜伦·凯蒂：马克，我们就这样吧。我非常爱你，也爱你在这个世界上所做的工作，天哪。谢谢你，我的朋友。太有趣了。
Dr. Mark Hyman:And definitely check out Byron Katie’s books. They’re just beautiful meditations on life and happiness and joy and how we get free from suffering. At the end of the day I think the purpose of life that I’ve figured out, and I’m going to be 62. Finally, I think I figured out it’s about freedom. It’s really freedom, mental freedom, spiritual freedom, emotional freedom, physical freedom, which is all under our control. And you think, oh well people are in horrible situations and how do you do that?
Dr. Mark Hyman:And people are, people are in tough situations. But I just remember reading Victor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning, where he talked about his experience in Auschwitz in a concentration camp and he realized that the only thing that the guards and the Nazis couldn’t take from him was his mind. And he refused to be imprisoned even though he was in prison. And it’s such a beautiful story about reminding us that no matter where we are, what we’re in, it’s really our own interpretation and beliefs and our thoughts and our minds that determine our state of being.
Dr. Mark Hyman:And it also reminds me of when I was 26 I went to Nepal on a medical expedition and I met this guy who was a Tibetan doctor. So, it’s very interesting, Tibetan medicine. I went to hang out with him and we had a translator and this guy spent 22 years. He escaped from Tibet after 22 years in a Chinese gulag where he was tortured almost every day.
Byron Katie:Oh my goodness.
Dr. Mark Hyman:And I said to him, “What was the most difficult part about all of that?” And what he said shocked me and humbled me and blew me away. He said, “The hardest part were the moments where I felt like I might lost compassion for Chinese jailers.” I’m like, wow, okay. I’m far from that. But if that’s true, if a human being can achieve that state, whether it’s Victor Frankl in a concentration camp or a Tibetan doctor in a Chinese gulag, all of us can become free. And that’s what you’re offering to give.
Byron Katie:As you were telling that of the torture and the hardest part for him, that question, I projected you were going to say, it would be like they’re torturing me and my mind might think I hope they don’t do this to them. I hope they don’t continue doing this to them.
Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah.
Byron Katie:[crosstalk 01:10:05] mind is free it’s not about you anymore. It’s about the apparent perpetrator and he’s doing that to him, meaning he’s stuck in that state of mind that he would go against himself whether he’s aware of it or not. We can’t shift our nature and our nature is, we have words for it, loving, caring, compassionate. But what the ego would think and what we’re thinking and believing would confuse us about that.
Byron Katie:So, I know a man said he was going to kill me at one point and it was late at night. Maybe 2:00 AM in the morning, I don’t recall. But the moon was out and the clouds. It was beautiful. And evidently, I was in his space in the dark, it was in the desert by the river, and frightened him. But he said he was going to kill me and my thought was I hope he doesn’t do that to him. And he actually had a gun and pulled the hammer back and I could see the moon and the sky and the fear in his eyes and the compassion and heard the river and the beautiful desert. Who would want to miss the last few moments of their life? And that’s what we do when we’re in the past and future. We miss our life. We miss our life.
Dr. Mark Hyman:Oh, wow. What you just said is the perfect summary of everything, which is we miss our lives because we’re living in the past or the future where the suffering exists and we’re missing the magic and meaning of the moment, which is always ready for us. And that is like whoa, that is so good. That is so good. That is so good. Well, thank you-
Byron Katie:Who and what we are, huh?
Dr. Mark Hyman:Thank you so much, Byron, for being on the Doctor’s Farmacy. This has been the best conversation and everybody’s got to check out your work. Please go find out more about Byron Katie. Download the Judge-Your-Neighbor Worksheet, download the One-Belief-at-a-Time Worksheet. Make sure you check out her work, which you can view every week and be part of and you can even be the one she’s working with at home with bk.com and check out her podcast, own her books. She’s a national, maybe global treasure.
Dr. Mark Hyman:So, Katie, thank you so much for being you. I hope I get to see you in person sometime soon.
Byron Katie:Mark, let’s do that. I love you dearly and your work in the world, oh boy. Thank you, my friend. So much fun.
