The Ming emperors were Muslims?

The Ming emperors were Muslims? 

 

Read the arguments about Zhenghe. Not surprised that all of you are disucussing something way beyongd the truth. The truth is that the emperor of MIng was Muslim himself. He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim. All his sailing routes is about muslim. Here is the picture I made. Although I wrote a paper in Chinese that evidence about the ZhuYuanZhang , the emperor of Ming, is Muslim himself. Sorry, do not have time to translate them into English now. Just post it.

 

【图文】海内外数位学者证明：明朝的朱元璋是“回回”人
一。民间的传说，正史，野史
朱元璋手下回民将领之多，是其他开国领袖不能比的。而元末时，政治空气是很敏感的，为什么一个回民集团会团结在他周围呢？朱元璋的夫人姓马，不曾缠足，这几乎说明了一切，十个回民九个姓马，回民女性皆不缠足，那时回民不大可能与外族通婚。安徽地区有大量的色目人，民间又有十回保一朱的说法，分指常遇春、胡大海、冯国勇、冯胜、丁德兴、蓝玉、沐英、华云、李文忠等人。被朱棣篡位后枭首的兵部尚书铁铉就是色目人。 这样一个回教色彩浓厚的集团在战乱的情况下有可能拱卫一个汉人登基么？

1。朱元璋十七岁时的“特殊”葬亲仪式：
《明史》载：“至正四年(1344年)旱蝗，大饥疫，太祖时年十七，父母兄相继殁，贫不克葬，里人刘继祖与之地，乃克葬，即凤阳陵也。” 《明史》没有说明是如何克葬的。海外著名史学家黎东方博士所着的细说中国历史系列中《细说明朝》记载：“他是贫农家庭的安分守己的子弟，在他十七岁的一年，元顺帝至正四年(1344年)旱灾，蝗虫与瘟疫先后降临到他的家乡，濠州钟离县(安徽凤阳)，父亲朱世珍，母亲陈氏，大哥朱兴隆，在几天内相继去世，家里的现款极少，买不起三口棺材，更买不起坟地，幸亏有邻居刘家心好，准他和二哥朱兴盛把父母和大哥三人的尸首用白布裹起，埋在刘家坟地的一个角落。” 按汉族的传统习惯，富户人家所用棺材一般以杉木制成；中等家庭则使用普通木材制成；贫户人家庭则使用薄皮棺材；赤贫者则使用芦苇包卷，抬往旷野埋葬。朱氏一家如是汉族，为何一反汉族的传统习惯而改用白布呢?况且白布的价格比薄板、芦苇昂贵，朱氏一家属赤贫，为何舍弃廉价之物不买而去买昂贵的白布呢? 伊斯兰教规定穆斯林亡者须穿“克凡”(白布殓衣)后土葬。由此可以推断朱家并非穷得买不起最简单的棺材才用白布，而是按伊斯兰教的规定处理丧事。

2。朱元璋在“皇觉寺”当“和尚”
《明史》卷一载：“太祖孤无所依，乃入皇觉寺为僧。”黎东方的《细说明朝》记载：“就这样，从阴历四月挨到九月，九月里他进了皇觉寺，受戒当和尚。” 但是，皇觉寺不是通常意义上的佛道教的寺庙，而是一座清真寺，朱元璋出家为“僧”实际上是在清真寺里做“海里凡”(经堂学生，西北地区称“满拉”)，皇觉寺这一名称则是朱元璋登基称帝后所赐的名称，意为皇帝在此寺中觉醒。皇觉寺位于凤阳城西门外，是一座坐西向东的寺院。根据中国传统，凡儒、佛、道教的寺庙、观均坐北向南，而中国的清真寺一律坐西朝东，因为中国穆斯林做礼拜时，须朝向位于中国西方的麦加天房，皇觉寺正好坐西朝东，且其建筑形式与我国清真寺建筑形式雷同。

朱元璋称帝后，对“僧”、“光”、“秃”等的同音字非常忌讳。尉氏（河南尉氏）县学教授许元，在奏章上有“体乾法坤，藻饰太平。”这两句话是千年以前的古文，但朱元璋却解释说：“法坤与‘发髡’同音，发髡是剃光了头，讽刺我当过和尚。藻饰与‘早失’同音，显然要我早失太平。”于是许无被处斩。杭州府学教授徐一夔的表文中有“光天之下”、“天生圣人”等语，朱元璋牵强附会，说文中的“光”指光头，“生”是“僧”的谐音，徐是在借进呈表文骂他当过和尚。德安府训导吴宪的表文中有“望拜青门”之语，朱认为，“青门”是指和尚庙。这些犯了忌讳的，都被“诛其身而没其家”在朱元璋的淫威之下丧了命。 朱元璋为什么如此的忌讳和尚？ 原因很明显拉。

朱元璋对待佛教的态度。 按常理说朱元璋的"和尚"经历应该让他对佛教有种特别的好感，但是明朝的法律却极力限制佛教的发展：废除大量的佛教寺院，每县最多保留一座大观寺；逼迫大量的僧尼还俗，并规定男40岁以下，女50岁以下不得出家。 而对于当时势力并不太强大的伊斯兰教和回族却采取怀柔政策，敕建了很多清真寺。

朱元璋登基后敕建清真寺于南京、西安及滇、闽、粤等地区。南京清真寺赐名“净觉寺”落成后频临幸，并御制至圣《百字赞》赐清真寺，《百字赞》赞颂了真主和穆圣，并褒扬了伊斯兰，如果对伊斯兰没有感情和深刻的认识，写不出如此杰作。《百字赞》收录于清代刘智著作《天方至圣实录》内，其全文如下：“乾坤初始，天籍注名，传教大圣，降生西域，受授天经，三十部册，普化众生，亿兆君师，万圣领袖，协助天运，保庇国民，五时祈佑，默祝太平，存心真主，加志穷民，拯救患难，洞彻幽冥，超拔灵魂，脱离罪业，仁覆天下，道冠古今，降邪归一，教名清真，穆罕默德。至贵圣人。”另外还依据明武宗朱厚照（1506—1521在位）对各宗教的评论和《御制尊真主事诗》。武宗评论各宗教日：“儒者之学虽可以开物成物，而不足以穷神知化。佛老之学，似类穷神知化而不能复命归真。盖诸教之道各执一偏，唯清真认主之教，深源于正理，此所以乘万世与天壤久也。”《尊真主事诗》日：“一教玄玄诸教迷，其中奥妙少人知，佛是人修人是佛，不尊真主却尊谁？”

二。郑和七下南洋不是去经商和搞殖民地的，而是去追寻其回回阿拉伯老祖宗的迁移史，云南大学国际关系学院教授的肖宪论证. 郑和七下南洋途中在东南亚的传播伊斯兰教。郑和航海之前的中国，伊斯兰已有很大的发展。中国穆斯林严格遵守信仰，建立了经常教育制度，发展了中国穆斯林的文化教育，并在各地建起了许多宏伟、体现中阿艺术融合的清真寺。而同时期的东南亚，由于受印度文化的影响，还流行印度教和佛教，伊斯兰在大多地区仍无影响，只有极少数地区的人信仰伊斯兰。 当郑和远航经过东南亚诸国时，每到一地都要与其随从穆斯林马欢、郭崇礼、哈三等举行仪式并宣传伊斯兰教义，并建立华人穆斯林社会区以传播伊斯兰。随着郑和在东南亚对伊斯兰的宣传，使得东南亚地区，尤其是在印度尼西亚和马来西亚的伊斯兰迅速地发展起来。 之后，郑和七下南洋的资料被明朝自己销毁。明朝为什么自己销毁?

三。19世纪，在土耳其发现了旅行家赛义德阿里.阿克巴尔哈塔伊
于1516年(即回历922年，明武宗正德十一年) ，用波斯文写的《中国纪行》一书。 全书共2l章，用较多的篇幅介绍了明代中国伊斯兰教的情况， 特别记述了明代王室与伊斯兰教的关系。中国张至善、张铁伟、岳家明三人以英、德译本和新波斯文本为依据， 编译成汉文本，并附有国际上对该书研究之论文13篇,照片和图表7幅,1988年,由三联书店出版。
波斯旅行家赛义德·阿里·阿克巴尔·哈塔伊于1500游历中国，于1516年在当时奥斯曼帝国首都君士坦丁堡，用波斯语写成《中国纪行》一书，作为礼物奉献给土耳其素丹赛利姆一世。该书全面介绍了当时中国社会各方面的状况。作者出于穆斯林的宗教感情，以较多的篇幅着重介绍了明朝王室与伊斯兰教的关系，说：“宫廷内有皇帝专用的清真寺，有宣礼员，主麻日（星期五）皇帝到城外的清真寺做聚礼，以及穆斯林文臣武将对明朝开国的贡献、皇帝对他们的重用等。说：“从皇帝的某些行为看，他已信奉伊斯兰教了，然而由于害怕丧失权力，他不能对此公开宣布。这是因为他的国家风俗和法规所规定的……。”阿里·阿克巴尔的描述是他亲眼所见，与中国民间的传说相吻合。

四。台湾马明道参照该书及明正史、野史、史学家的评述、回民口碑传说， 对明朝王室的族属和宗教信仰进行了详尽的研究考证， 于1973年写出《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》一书。 确认朱元璋、马皇后及其家族和亲戚均为回回。

五。 周有光 ，我国德高望重的著名语言学家 ，任中国社会科学院研究生院研究员、语言文字应用委员会研究员，他的话可是有份量的 ，以他的年龄和身份没必要哗众取崇的。他说： 辽、金、元、明、清这五代的1000年，都是外族打进中原来加以统治的。 其中辽、金、元、清是外族，大家都是同意的， 明朝是不是外族呢？ 现在新的考证说明太祖朱元璋不是汉族而是回族，这已经证明了。

六。陈梧桐，著名明史专家，中央民族大学教授， 兼任中国明史学会理事、朱立璋研究会顾问。 他对周有光 上面的话反驳， 但他的反驳软弱无力，基本都是推测或者主观上的。 这从反面证实了周有光说的有道理。

七。白寿彝先生, 1932年毕业于燕京大学国学研究所，先后执教于云南大学、中央大学、北京师范大学，致力于中国民族史、中国史学史及中国通史的研究。主要著作有《学步集》、《回族人物志》、《中国史学史教本》、《中国通史》等，视野恢宏，器识卓越，是著名的历史学家。在1946年出版的《中国伊斯兰史纲要》一书中，有条脚注提到过“父老相传，明太祖原是回回；建文帝的出走，系赴天方朝觐。又颇有人相信，武宗也信教（指伊斯兰教）”（《民族宗教论集》，河北教育出版社2001年版第412页）。

八。朱元璋的菜单。 “参加第10届明史学术讨论会的台湾“中研院”历史语言研究所邱仲麟先生首次公开了他从明人笔记中发现的这张菜单。 “胡椒醋鲜虾、烧鹅、燌羊头蹄、鹅肉巴子、咸鼓芥末羊肚盘、蒜醋白血汤、五味蒸鸡、元汁羊骨头、糊辣醋腰子、蒸鲜鱼、五味蒸面筋、羊肉水晶角儿、丝鹅粉汤、三鲜汤、绿豆棋子面、椒末羊肉、香米饭、蒜酪、豆汤、泡茶”看着这张菜单，您一定会胃口大开。可是您也许不知道，这竟是洪武十七年（1384年）6月某天，明太祖朱元璋的午餐菜谱。

最后，现在的学术界所谓持审慎的态度，正如吹捧唐朝贬低清朝一样，是为了一些人的所谓大汉族自尊心，是怕更多的少数民族皇帝开创中国历史的事实，这个对一些汉人脆弱的自尊心打击太大了 。中国的历史学者什么时候会摆脱成见，做个名符其实的学者呢？北京某大学教授周思源的唐朝疆域是现在版图的一倍，这么疯狂吹捧唐朝的话，什么时候会消失呢？中国五千年的文明，证据在哪里呢？

常见问题解答：
一。问：朱元璋为回回，明正史为什么没有记载?
答：按回民传说，朱元璋称帝后，讳言自己为回回，没有公开宣布自己的宗教信仰，“因言回民，不足以号召广大汉族民众也。”(薛文波《明代与回民之关系》)。而阿里·阿克巴尔在《中国纪行》中说：“从皇帝的某些行为看，他已转变成信奉伊斯兰教了，然而由于害怕丧失权力，他不能对此公开宣布。这是因为他的国家风俗和法规所决定的。”阿里·阿克巴尔的分析看法与回民的传说基本上是一致的。但是，他说，中国皇帝“已转变成信奉伊斯兰教了”。这一点与史实不符。明朝皇帝不是“转变成信奉伊斯兰教了”，而是他的家族原来就是信奉伊斯兰教的回回。如果没有这个家族传统信仰的基因。在儒、佛、道思想文化根深蒂固的中国，一个对伊斯兰教并无渊源，且十分陌生的汉族封建皇帝改信伊斯兰教的可能性几乎是没有的。

二。问：明太祖压抑来华的西域穆斯林蒲寿庚后裔。蒲寿庚在宋时任泉州提举市舶，蒙古军南下时，蒲降元。明太祖对蒲寿庚的叛宋降元极为不满，对于蒲后裔颇为压抑。《闽书》载：“皇朝太祖禁蒲姓者不得读书入仕。”《宋元通鉴》载：“我太祖皇帝禁泉州蒲寿庚、孙胜夫之子不得齿于士，盖治其先世导元倾宋之罪，故禁夷之也。”《日知录》载：“明太祖有天下，治宋末蒲寿庚、黄万石子孙不得仕宦。”
答：关于明太祖压抑蒲寿庚后裔，其因是蒲氏的叛宋降元，这是出于政治的分歧，并非因为蒲氏是穆斯林。历史上和现今，由于政治观点不同，同室操戈者大有人在。

三。问：朱元璋在起义前曾在皇觉寺当过“和尚”。《明史》卷一载：“太祖孤无所依，乃入皇觉寺为僧。”
答：关于朱元璋在起义前入皇觉寺为僧，乃是在清真寺念经做“海里凡”

四。问：朱元璋汉族观念极深，起义初，以种族革命一“驱逐胡虏，恢复中华”号召天下，目的是推翻元蒙，恢复汉族江山。因元代汉族备受压迫，握有权势者首为蒙古人，次为色目人。因此，明太祖疾恨蒙古人、色目人等外族，并采取种种压抑措施。
答：朱元璋要在汉族占绝大多数的中国建立帝业，如不依靠汉族，就很难来维持当时的局面。元末明初的回回与唐宋、元初有所不同。这时的回回，除保持伊斯兰教基本信仰外，已吸收了汉族的不少传统文化，接受了汉语、汉姓；在服饰、生活习惯上与汉族略有不同，已开始中国化了，而且，朱元璋的主要革命目标是推翻蒙古人的统治。因此，他的口号“驱逐胡虏，恢复中华”及“凡蒙古人、色目人，听与中国人为婚姻”的提法与他的身份并不矛盾，是符合情况的。

五。问：明太祖吴元年(1367年)谕檄北中国曰：“自古帝王临御天下，中国居内，以割夷狄；夷狄居外，以奉中国。未闻以夷狄居中国治天下者也……古云：胡虏无百年之运，验之今日，信乎不谬。当此之时，天运循环，中原气盛亿兆之中，当降生圣人，驱逐胡虏，恢复中华，立纲陈纪，救济斯民。”(《皇明通纪》卷二)。“明太祖的汉族观念从中可见一般。”
答：1, 4

六。问：明太祖禁止蒙古人、色目人自相嫁娶，而迫使他们与中国人(汉人)通婚，是歧视、同化包括回回在内的外族。《明律》卷六载：“凡蒙古人、色目人，听与中国人(汉人)为婚姻，不许本类自相嫁娶。违者杖八十，男女入官为奴。”
答：关于明太祖禁止蒙古人、色目人自相嫁娶，听与中国人(汉人)为婚姻一事，马明道先生认为：从表面看，此禁令意在同化回族、蒙古族，实则回化汉族。明太祖是十分了解伊斯兰教法的，知道伊斯兰教禁止穆斯林与非穆斯林通婚，除非改奉伊斯兰教，而蒙古人并无这种严格的规定。明太祖提倡回汉通婚，其深层用意在于扩大回族人数，发展伊斯兰教。

七。问：政治人物的出身并不重要，关键是他代表的利益集团。就算朱是回回。So What？ 不知lz想说明什么问题？
答：就算朱是回回？朱是回回已经早有专著和历史文献发表了. 而我们为什么对此回避？发现朱是回回是历史爱好者的兴奋点哦. 另外么, 看看楼下有多少个诬蔑清朝捧明朝的帖子. 证明朱是回回, 是对哪些搞狭义民族主义者的最沉重的打击喽.

八。问：明朝皇宫御膳房里不乏猪肉吧
答：明朝皇宫御膳房里是不乏猪肉，但那个猪肉是给皇帝吃的么？见上文的朱元璋的午餐
菜谱。下面还有垛子羊肉和朱元璋的故事，还有明史的记载。明史的记载中，除了
有猪肉外，每次还有羊肉。这里明人笔记中发现的那张菜单，是最有说服力的。因
为，无论是那一部正史，都有修史的官方或者参预修史人的主观因素在里面。而明
人笔记，或者其他私人笔记则不然，比如一个当年地主的日记支持张献忠的屠杀四
川人等等。
1。见明太祖朱元璋的午餐菜谱.
2。垛子羊肉合了朱元璋的口味
　　关于明朝皇帝朱元璋，有史料记载和很多的有趣传说，他是一个很有传奇色彩的帝王，人们提起他来，都能说出一两段关于他的故事来。
　　据民间传说，朱元璋的妻子马娘娘是回民，朝中的文武官员也以回民居多。可朱元璋是不是回民在史料中没有记载，传说故事中也没有提到这一点。但回民一直都说朱元璋是“老俵”。
　　基于朱元璋可能是回民的说法，就有传说称，明朝宫廷里的膳食都是清真的。据说，皇帝朱元璋最喜欢吃羊肉，一天至少要吃上一次。宫廷里有一帮御厨专门为他做羊肉，这些御厨都是从全国各地挑选来的，做羊肉人人都有一套，有的蒸羊肉在行，有的炒羊肉有独到之处，还有的炖羊肉汤是一绝，朱元璋每天可以吃到不同花样的羊肉。然而时间久了，这帮御厨们也不免“江郎才尽”，再也做不出新鲜的口味，难免让朱元璋失望。看到皇上吃羊肉没有了兴趣，御厨们诚惶诚恐，生怕有一天朱元璋怪罪下来，他们会受到责罚。
　　在众多的御厨中，有个姓关的中年男子，他本不会做羊肉，是专门炒菜的。当他得知皇上吃腻了“同事”们做的羊肉时，私下里动了心思，悄悄研究起羊肉的新做法来。关姓男子是回民，家是宁陵县城东关的。在他老家，人们有用大锅煮羊肉的习惯，煮出的羊肉味道很好。他没事的时候，便煮了一只羊，配上各种作料，熟后取出冷凉，把骨头全部剔除，对着一堆肥肥瘦瘦的羊肉，他苦思冥想，寻求一种独特的做法。几天后，他脑子中忽然灵光一闪，他把这堆羊肉用粗木棒挤压成厚厚的一坨。之后，他用刀切下薄薄的一片，一尝，竟有一种特别的味道。他大喜过望，又反复试验了几次，并找人帮忙把羊肉挤压得更结实些。一次，朱元璋用膳的时候，对着面前的羊肉丝毫没有动筷的欲望，他瞅准这个时机，把用烧饼夹着挤压过后的羊肉片呈到朱元璋面前。朱元璋疑惑地咬了一口，细细咀嚼之后，龙颜大悦，赞不绝口，问是什么东西，关御厨把做法详细一说，朱元璋直夸他有心，当即决定让其专为他做此种羊肉。
　　关御厨为皇上做了10多年的羊肉，中间他不断改进，增减作料，使味道越来越地道，也因此屡屡得到朱元璋的奖赏。到了50多岁的时候，他告老还乡，回到了宁陵县东关老家。闲来无事，他便给家人和亲友做成坨的羊肉吃，大家吃后齐声叫好，问这羊肉叫啥名字。这一问还真让关御厨答不上来了，这么多年他一直都没给自己做的羊肉起个名字。他略一思索，道：“既然是把羊肉垛起来吃的，就叫它垛子羊肉吧！”
3。明史-志第二十三-礼一
牲牢三等：曰犊，曰羊，曰豕。色尚骍，或黝。大祀，入涤九旬；中祀，三旬；
小祀，一旬。大祀前一月之朔，躬诣牺牲所视牲，每日大臣一人往视。洪武二年，
帝以祭祀省牲，去神坛甚迩，于人心未安，乃定省牲之仪，去神坛二百步。七年定
制，大祀，皇帝躬省牲；中祀、小祀，遣官。嘉靖十一年更定，冬、夏至，祈谷，
俱祭前五日亲视，后俱遣大臣。圜丘，苍犊；方丘，黄犊；配位，各纯犊。洪武七
年，增设圜丘配位。星辰，牛一，羊豕三。太岁，牛羊豕一。风云雷雨、天下神祇，
羊豕各五。方丘配位，天下山川，牛一，羊豕各三。太庙禘，正配皆太牢，祫皆太
牢。时享每庙犊羊豕各一。亲王配位，洪武三年定，共牛羊豕一。二十一年更定，
每坛犊羊豕各一。功臣配位，洪武二年定，每位羊豕体各一。二十一年更定，每坛
羊豕一。太社稷，犊羊豕各一，配位同。府州县社稷，正配位，共羊一、豕一。洪
武七年增设，各羊一、豕一。朝日、夕月，犊羊豕各一。先农与太社稷同。神祇，
洪武二年定，羊六、豕六。二十一年更定，每坛犊羊豕各一。嘉靖十年，天神左，
地祇右，各牲五。星辰，每坛羊一、豕一。帝王，每室犊羊豕各一。配位，每坛羊
豕各一。先师如帝王，四配如配位，十哲东西各豕一分五，两庑东西各豕一，后增
为三。府州县学先师，羊一、豕一。四配。共羊一、豕一，解为四体。十哲东西各
豕一，解为五体。两庑豕一，解为百八分。旗纛，洪武九年定犊羊豕，永乐后，去
犊。王国及卫所同。五祀马神俱用羊豕。
4。明史-志第二十七-礼五
○荐新
洪武元年，定太庙月朔荐新仪物：正月，韭、荠、生菜、鸡子、鸭子。二月，
水芹、蒌蒿、台菜、子鹅。三月，茶、笋、鲤鱼、鮆鱼。四月，樱桃、梅、杏、鲥
鱼、雉。五月，新麦、王瓜、桃、李、来禽、嫩鸡。六月，西瓜、甜瓜、莲子、冬
瓜。七月，菱、梨、红枣、蒲萄。八月，芡、新米、藕、茭白、姜、鳜鱼。九月，
小红豆、栗、柿、橙、蟹、鳊鱼。十月，木瓜、柑、橘、芦菔、兔、雁。十一月，
荞麦、甘蔗、天鹅、鹚老?、鹿。十二月，芥菜、菠菜、白鱼、鲫鱼。其礼皆天子
躬行。未几，以属太常。二年诏，凡时物，太常先荐宗庙，然后进御。三年，定朔
日荐新，各庙共羊一、豕一、笾豆八、簠簋登铏各二、酒尊三，及常馔鹅羹饭。太
常卿及与祭官法服行礼。望祭，止常馔鹅羹饭，常服行礼。又有献新之仪，凡四方
别进新物，在月荐外者，太常卿与内使监官常服献于太庙。不行礼。其后朔望祭祀，
及荐新、献新，俱于奉先殿。
(注：豕：猪; 犊：小牛)
九。问：一个虔诚的回民，不会用猪肉来祭祀他的祖先，而朱元璋都做了
答：什么叫政治？什么叫政客？为了权力，李世民把东宫太子李建成杀了，武则天
把她儿子宰了。 为了权力，崇拜猪有那么难以理解么？如果你仔细看一下中国的历
史，哪些“皇帝”有的可以说是流氓，“皇帝”的同伙甚至是流氓集团。
如果没有唐太宗还会有贞观之治吗?
会的
我认为东宫太子李建成不会比李世民差
而通常认为不会的，是因为被加“色”的历史误导了
这里加“色”的历史有两个：
1。李世民被夸大被神话
2。隋朝被贬低，以创造李世民的神话
1。李世民被神话了，李世民并没有教科书上那么伟大英明
李世民整治吏治，以兴唐为业，他哥哥也可以做到
李世民并没有教科书上那么伟大英明，李世民晚年为求速效，发动了高句丽的战争。
实际上唐太宗早年的功劳有美化成分，他在位的后期大兴士木、劳民伤财，当时政
府的财政状况并不好。他晚期的作为是贞观之治不能持续的主要原因。
李世民的私德也没那么完美，先是杀了自己的兄弟，后期也拒谏。李世民先淫了表
叔杨广的妻子萧氏和女儿杨氏，后淫了弟弟元吉的妻子杨氏，结果他晚年宠爱的才
人武氏和他儿子私通，在 他还没死的时候就让李世民当了乌龟。 唐朝的脏事多了，
不多说喽，再说就跑题喽。脏唐本身说明了唐朝并非那么尊重儒家的，这也许和唐
朝的鲜卑血统有关。
2。隋朝的科举制度为李世民的选用贤才创造了基础，隋朝建东都，开发的大运河是
贞观之治形成的重要原因。隋炀帝很有才能的，是一位有成就的诗人、独具风格

-----------

Emperor Zhu Yuan Zhang, with forieghn looks ( SeMuRen?)

 

Briaef history of Muslim in China.
Golden era of Muslim in China is in MIng Dynasty.
Because of the emperor himself is Muslim

1。纠正一个概念，回纥不完全等于回族，其中少部份成了后来的回族。有人把回纥（Huihe）当成唐朝（618-907）的一个郡，这是错误的，回纥是和唐朝并列的一个国家，回纥，吐番并不属于唐朝，只是通过和亲等，曾经和唐朝有过友好关系，但那也是暂时的，后来吐番还攻入唐朝的首都长安。
2。和唐朝（618-907）并列的回纥不完全等于回族，回纥或者又叫作回鹘，其中少部份成了后来的回族。除了回纥外，回族还起源于唐宋时期的西北“大食”。回族是因信奉伊斯兰教而形成的一个新的民族，不像其他民族之间那样在着血缘基因上的区别。 公元651年伊斯兰教才正式传入中国的，当时信奉此教的人不多，所以，回纥人不都是回回，信奉伊斯兰教的才是回回。
3。唐宋时期，我国只是有了回回之称呼，回族主要来源是在元朝（1206-1368）的13世纪初叶，大量被迫迁来中国的中亚人、波斯人和阿拉伯人。后来不断同汉族人、维吾尔人、蒙古人融合，逐渐形成了回回民族。在元朝（1206-1368），回回人数众多，遍布全国各地，在农、工、商、学、兵等各阶层都形成了一定的社会力量。他们不仅在经济、政治上，而且在学术上都有了立足的基础和自下而上的条件，这就是形成民族共同体的前提条件。他们虽然社会地位、职业身份、成就影响各不相同，但却有一个共同的特点：伊斯兰教徒。
4。现在已经由多位学者证明，明朝（1368-1644）的皇帝是回族穆斯林。明朝是回族穆斯林发展最快速的时期。
5。回族称呼的来源：从651年伊斯兰教传入中国，大批穆斯林商人陆续由海路来华，在广州、西安等城市定居，建筑了中国最早的一批礼拜寺，当时他们被称为蕃客或土生蕃客，至元代被称为回回蕃客或南蕃回回，成为回回人的一部分。回回一词初见于北宋沈括《梦溪笔谈》和南宋彭大雅《黑鞑事略》中，主要指葱岭东、西处于喀喇汗朝统治下的回纥人。元代回回是对伊斯兰教信仰者的通称。明代称伊斯兰教为回教，称其教徒为回回人。清至民国年间凡信仰伊斯兰教的民族统称回或回回。中华人民共和国建立后，各民族确定了自己的族称，回回成为回族的通俗称呼。

More argument about why ZhuYUanZhang is muslim.
九。问：龙兴寺：龙兴寺的前身是明太祖朱元璋幼年时削发为僧的皇觉寺，原在凤阳县西南6公里处，后废于战火。朱元璋当皇帝后，想起少年为家的皇觉寺，便在日精峰下重建，并改为今名，又亲撰《龙兴寺碑》文。龙兴寺由中都名材营建，雕刻精细，规制宏壮，等级甚高。《大明洪武实录》载："（龙兴寺）佛殿、法堂、僧舍之属凡三百八十一间"。寺内原藏有朱元璋画像、铁像以及铜镬、铸有铭文的铁磐。明清两代名人诗词题刻琳琅满目，嵌于东西两廊。龙兴寺自兴建至今已600多年，现尚存有殿阁20余间。"龙兴古刹"牌坊、"皆大欢喜"牌额、明铸大铜镬、铜钟、明万历诗碑以及僧侣做斋饭用的四只铜锅等文物，至今完好无损。http://www.dnabomb.blogchina.com/ 这个链接说明了龙兴寺是个佛寺，而且是朱元璋主持修建的
答：注意，主文说的是皇觉寺，而不是重建的龙兴寺。皇觉寺废于战火，朱元璋当皇帝后，在日精峰下重建。至于重建的龙兴寺是什么性质的寺庙不重要了，而龙兴寺碑是在朱元璋当皇帝后写的，为了掩盖朱元璋的历史，任何改变都是可以理解的，也就是说，龙兴寺是什么性质的不重要，重要的是皇觉寺坐西朝东，且建筑形式与清真寺雷同。

十。问：江苏镇江的金山寺其庙门也是朝西的，但金山寺是一地地道道的中国传统宗教寺庙，大同华严寺，门也是向东的。承德外八庙中的安远庙、普乐寺，是座东朝西的，难道这些寺庙都是清真寺？明摆着不是
答：文中提到的特列都有可以解释的特殊原因。
1。金山寺是因为要正对江流，才大门西开。
http://www.enweiculture.com/Culture/dsptex...017020205060012.
htm
2。安远庙是因为要团结边疆各少数民族而建。安复安远庙建于乾隆二十九年（1764年），其建筑形式是仿新疆伊犁河畔的“固尔扎庙”，又称“伊犁庙”。乾隆二十二年（1757年），由于当时阿睦尔撒纳的叛乱，达什达瓦寡妻冲破阻挠，历尽千辛万苦，举部投归清政府。乾隆皇帝为了安抚达什达瓦部落，将他们迁徙到承德定居，并在驻地山冈上建安远庙，寓意安定远方，团结边疆各民族，巩固北部边防，维护国家统一。安远庙落成后，不仅成为达什达瓦部众进行宗教活动的场所，也是清王朝用来团结边疆各少数民族的政治活动场所。 安远庙占地26,000平方米，其建筑布局整齐对称，中轴线分明，以山门，碑亭，普渡殿，后山门为主体建筑，进入山门，有一片空地，是当年达什达瓦部众举行“跳步踏”的场所。主殿普渡殿，殿顶全部覆盖黑色琉璃瓦，形式独特，具有蒙古喇嘛寺庙中传统的都纲（讲经堂）法式，布局严整。
http://www.chinayat.com/main/wsay/cd/WBM2.HTM
3。上华严寺是因为当年契丹族“信鬼拜日”的特殊习尚。 契丹族特别崇拜太阳，把太阳当作神，作为民族的图腾。在他们的眼里，草原是太阳给的，鲜花是太阳给的，牛羊是太阳给的，一切都与太阳有关。所以每天早晨都要朝拜太阳，一些宗教礼拜活动也必须朝着太阳，连自己任的帐篷和房屋、宫殿都朝东修建，门窗也朝东开着。修建寺庙自然也不敢违背了这一习俗，所以上下华严寺的庙门朝东开了近千年。
http://www.ct927.com/web/show_07.asp?cansu_id=990&id=752
4。普乐寺是为了西北各少数民族。 普乐寺建于乾隆三十一年（1766年）， 占地面积24,000平方米，建筑布局和形式分前后两部分：前半部采用汉族寺庙传统的“伽蓝七堂”形式布局；后半部主体建筑“旭光阁”是仿北京天坛的祁年殿。 　　普乐寺的修建主要是供来避暑山庄朝觐清帝的哈萨克、维吾尔、柯尔克孜等西北各少数民族王公贵族瞻礼之用，是清朝政府利用宗教政策团结边疆少数民族，加强其封建统治的活动场所。乾隆皇帝题名“普乐”则是采用范仲淹《岳阳楼记》中的名句，有“普天同乐”之意。
http://www.chinayat.com/main/wsay/cd/WBM1.HTM

十一。问：一个虔诚的回民，不会用猪肉来祭祀他的祖先，而朱元璋做了
答：什么叫政治？什么叫政客？为了权力，李世民把东宫太子李建成杀了，武则天把她儿子宰了。 为了权力，用猪肉来祭祀他的祖先，有那么难以理解么？如果你仔细看一下中国的历史，哪些“皇帝”有的可以说是流氓头子，“皇帝”的同伙甚至是流氓集团。举个例子，孙文今天从日本哪里弄点钱，明天又向俄国或者西方什么国家拉点赞助，之后在中国收买一些黑帮，就变成了“革命事业”，夺权了，再把一些黑帮一脚踢开，理由是黑帮的革命觉悟不高。孙文甚至把各界捐献的钱财私自卷走。

十二。问：朱元璋的父母死后“殡无棺椁”，并非出自回回的习俗，而是由于当时朱家太穷，穷得连坟地都没有，更不要说置办棺椁衣衾的银两钞币了。幸得邻居刘继祖给了一块坟地，朱元璋和二哥、大嫂才得以为双亲换上洗干净的破旧衣服，将他们草草埋葬。朱元璋称帝后，为他们修建高大壮观的皇陵，在《皇陵碑》中还无限悲伤地写道：“殡无棺椁，被体恶裳，浮掩三尺，奠何肴□浆！”（《高皇帝御制文集》卷14）此外，明朝的陵墓，从江苏盱眙的祖陵、安徽凤阳的皇陵到江苏南京的孝陵和东陵、北京的十三陵和景泰陵、湖北钟祥的显陵，碑刻都只有汉文而没有阿拉伯文字，雕饰也都是传统的汉族风格而非伊斯兰风格，陵制也都是在唐宋陵寝制度的基础上发展而成的，与伊斯兰风格的回族坟墓迥然有别。
答：朱元璋称帝后写的碑文不足信。因言回民，不足以号召广大汉族民众。由于害怕丧失权力，他不能对此公开宣布。这是因为他的国家风俗和法规所决定的。

十三。问：朱元璋原来信奉明教,是明教五散人中彭萤玉的徒弟.而明教由波斯传入,实际上就是拜火教.崇拜圣火.而并非伊斯兰教.明教教徒原来也不吃猪肉,后来在教主张无忌倡议取消了此种禁忌.同时还发明了月饼.后来张无忌离开明教,朱元璋害死小明王韩林儿和光明左史杨萧当了教主,后来登基为皇帝仍然以"明"为国号。幸亏是朱元璋赢了,如果是丐帮出身的陈友谅当了皇帝,中国就要以"丐"为国号了，全国人民每人发一个碗一个打狗棒。
答：朱元璋实质上不属于明教，小说之言而已。只是乱事中身不由己地投入造反大潮中的百万之众中的一员而已。
　　 凡读过金庸《倚天屠龙记》者都熟悉高手云集的诡异邪派明教，小说中把明教写成元末的红巾大起义的发起和组织者，当时的一些真实的风云人物，像韩山童、彭莹玉、郭子兴、陈友谅、朱元璋等，在书中均被列入了明教信徒行列。到最后，善良而懦弱的教主张无忌因被人误解而主动携美归隐，方使得朱元璋“篡夺”了大权。朱元璋执政后，国号称“明”，亦有不敢忘本之意，又或者是怕激怒武功绝顶的张无忌，被屠龙刀取了首级，呵呵。
　　 明教，即为历史上源于波斯，曾经流行一时的摩尼教。据白寿彝主编的《中国通史》，“摩尼教是在唐代传入中国的，安史之乱后传入漠北回鹘汗国。回鹘因协助平乱有功，成为内地摩尼教的保护者。公元840年回鹘西迁以后，回鹘人把摩尼教带入今吐鲁番一带地区。内地的摩尼教虽遭唐政府禁断，但并未绝灭，主要在东南沿海一带的民间流传。因为摩尼教崇拜光明，所以又称为明教。”（第十三册，第四节）。从此以后，明教成为了秘密的民间宗教。五代时陈州摩尼教徒曾聚徒起义，北宋的方□起义也属明教教徒的组织策动。
　　 元末的红巾起义最初源于“白莲会烧香惑众”，从元到清，白莲教“或充医卜，或充贸易，遍历各村，亲去传徒”，是最为普及和活跃的民间宗教组织。《明史 列传10》载：“元末，林儿父山童鼓妖言，谓“天下当大乱，弥勒佛下生”。河南、江、淮间愚民多信之。鞒州人刘福通与其党杜遵道、罗文素、盛文郁等复言“山童，宋徽宗八世孙，当主中国”。乃杀白马黑牛，誓告天地，谋起兵，以红巾为号。”这里面有两个值得注意之处，一是造反的宗旨（也可以理解为策略），乃是“复宋”。后来刘福通扶持韩林儿即帝，国号也是“宋”。二是白莲教的佛教性质，莲花和弥勒佛都属于佛教中的象征物和人物，“明王出世”的宣传，韩林儿的“小明王“称号和“大明”国号均可用相关佛教经典解释，应该是出自白莲教教义。后来的白莲教首领唐赛儿，则更直截了当的称“佛母”。
　　 白莲教的教义和明教有很多相似之处，“据白莲教的解释，世界上存在着两种叫做明暗“两宗”相互斗争的势力，明就是光明，代表善良和真理；暗就是黑暗，代表罪恶与不合理。这两方面，过去、现在和将来都在不断地进行斗争。弥勒佛降世后，光明就最终战胜黑暗。”（TOM网历史资料库：《白莲教的历史渊源》）而这所谓“两宗三际”说（两宗即明暗，三际为青阳、弘阳、白阳），恰恰又是明教的基本教义，只不过抽象的“光明之父“被实体化了的弥勒佛所替代。此外，白莲教教徒日常要求礼拜，“教首常于夜间聚众拜灯，念灵文。”也非常接近明教仪式。是明教为图生存而攀附佛道，还是白莲教借鉴了明教的教义？有待业内行家进一步深入考证。元末明初之际，明教也并非衰弱到了毫无号召力的程度。据白寿彝主编的《中国通史》载：“温州也是一处摩尼教徒集中的地方。那里有一所“潜光院”，是一所明教寺院。元末陈高曾经提到它，并指出“瓯闽人多奉”明教，教徒们“斋戒持颇严谨。日一食，昼夜七持诵膜拜”。有一些知识分子学习明教经典，隐居于此。”这说明当时至少在东南各地的民间，明教仍然具有一定的影响。
　　 此外，当时还有一派与白莲教相呼应，名为弥勒教的秘密民间组织，也就是纵横两湖的红巾徐寿辉、彭莹玉部，其教义也大体类似。基本可以说，三教教义有众多共同点，元末大暴动与此三教均密切相关。黎东方的《细说明朝》一书也说：““这个革命团体的真正名称是什么，今已难考。在外表上，它只是半公开的─种宗教．有时候被称为“明教”，有时候被称为“白莲教”，有时候被称为“弥勒教”。它的主要的口号是：“弥勒佛下凡转世，作人间的‘明王”。它的主要的戒律与活动，是烧香、点灯、吃素、做礼拜。”
　　 元至正十一年五月，“明王”韩山童遇害，刘福通起兵造反，次年春二月，郭子兴与孙德崖等在濠州响应，朱元璋就在那个时候投奔过去的。其时天下大乱，元王朝摇摇欲坠，崩溃在即，割据之势已成。在这个强豪们招兵买马，东征西讨的当口上，无需再用宗教去收买人心或建立组织，料不会有太多弘扬教义的心思，也不会有太多举办礼拜、念咒文，烧香点灯等等宗教仪式的空闲。所以说，本质而言，朱元璋不属于白莲教或者明教教徒，他只是为时代推动，身不由己地投入造反大潮中的百万之众中的一员罢了。
　　 当然，朱元璋又不仅仅是普通的一员。从元至正十一年三月投军，到二十四年正月进吴王位，十三年的时间，朱元璋征服群雄，消灭了势力最为强大的陈友谅，并屡破张士诚，江南半壁大半已入掌中，帝王之相成型。统一江山，南面称尊唯待时日而已。明这一国号如有些人猜测的那样含有宗教纪念的意味，可能性则不大。因为建国后，朱元璋于洪武三年即下旨禁“左道”，明教与白莲教同被禁止。 尽管最初朱元璋奉行“缓称王”的韬讳政策，在元至正二十四年以前，一直尊奉韩林儿的“宋”朝，北面为臣。但公允的说，名分虽为君臣，实际更像是相互呼应的同盟，朱元璋与韩宋政权在政治、军事、人事上均无行政方面的关系，毕竟逐鹿天下靠的是智慧和实力。朱元璋的江山是他凭多年的奋斗和卓越的政治军事能力打下来的，与其曾经的隶属，以及无论是否遵从过白莲教还是明教的教义无关。白莲教或明教仅仅是为其提供了一个创造从一无所有到至尊无上的“帝王本无种”传奇的舞台而已，如《明史》所言，“帝王之兴，必有先驱者资之以成其业。”

十四。问：民国时的风云人物宁夏马氏家族、白崇禧等，都是回民，坚定的*****，但他们还有一个共同点：反对“回族”这一说法。在他们看来，回民只是汉族中信仰伊斯兰教的一支，其差别相当于客家人和北方人的差别。且回民大量散居城镇（如河南不少县城都叫“城关回族镇”就可见一斑），早已同化。但回族最后仍被识别为一个单独民族。这一情况可与南斯拉夫类比：波黑*****实际上也是塞尔维亚人信仰伊斯兰教的一支，但铁托身为一个克罗地亚人，为防范大塞尔维亚主义，将之单独划分为一个民族。结果南斯拉失分裂后，波黑*****与塞尔维亚人这两个本是同民族的“不同民族”，进行了血腥的种族仇杀，由此可见人为分割民族的极端危害性。
答：我的文中已经说明，元朝就有了回回这个民族，中国现在也有回族，这些政客出于什么心里和目的否认回族的存在，我不想猜测。但是，公元651年伊斯兰教正式传入中国，回族在中国唐宋时期的发生和发展，元朝时期形成，明朝时期发展到最高峰，这些历史，是那些政客所否定或者改变不了的。

十五。问：皇帝性朱或者属猪，所以才不吃猪肉，禁猪
答：这是无聊的诡辩，中国历史上性朱的皇帝也有，性朱的大学者和百姓更多，为什么没有因为性朱或者属猪而杀人或者禁猪的或者不吃猪肉的？

十六。周有光和陈梧桐的辩论，至少给个原文啊。
答： 引言回复:
著名语言学家周有光一语激起千层浪———

认为朱元璋是回族人的学者，主要有三个方面的原因，这三个原因是否站得住脚？

陈梧桐先生认为，目前一些认定朱元璋是回族的论说都是站不住脚的。

第一，有人认为朱元璋相貌像是回族。据了解，流传至今的朱元璋画像有多种不同的版本，这些画像大体上可以分为两种。一种是相貌端正，和蔼慈祥，那是经过艺术加工的皇家标准像，与真实的相貌并不相符。另一种比较接近真实的画像，则迥异于一般的汉人。不过，依据相貌特点来确定族属，有失草率。陈先生说：“古今中外，任何民族都有长相奇特的人，谁又能说出哪种相貌肯定是哪个民族的人呢！”
第二，有人提出，朱元璋的原配夫人马皇后姓马，马姓是回族的姓，与回女结婚也就成了回民。陈先生认为，仅凭一个马姓是无法判定马皇后是回民的，因为汉族也有马姓，而且其历史远比回族的马姓更为久远，汉代汉族的马姓之中就已涌现出马援、马融等著名的历史人物了。
第三，有人列举，朱元璋后世子孙是回族的一些“论据”，认为可以作为朱元璋是回族的旁证。比如有人说，建文帝（朱元璋孙子，明朝第二代皇帝）在燕军攻入南京后出走，是赴天方（麦加）伊斯兰教圣地朝觐，这可以表明他是回族。然而，建文帝南京城破之时，究竟是死于宫中大火，还是逃亡在外，是桩历史疑案，至今未有定论。

建文帝出走至天方朝觐和明武宗的禁猪令是否和朱元璋是回族有关？

陈先生表示，记述建文“行踪”的野史笔记，大多只说他是剃发为僧、浪迹江湖或隐居山林，却未见有远赴天方朝觐的记载。有一个说法认为，郑和下西洋是为寻找建文帝，在他第四次下西洋时也的确到过天方。但郑和前后七下西洋到达的地区广大，并非只到过天方一地。而且也未见史籍记载他在那里听到或见到建文帝曾到达此地的踪迹，怎能断定建文帝出走是至天方朝觐呢？

还有人以明武宗正德十四年（1519年）南行途中，曾于十二月间在仪真（今江苏仪征）下令禁猪，在该县行祭祀孔子礼时，也不供猪头而供羊头，来表明他是信奉伊斯兰教，遵守禁食猪肉教规的回族。

陈先生指出，得出这种结论是因为对史实不了解造成的。明武宗的禁猪令讲得非常清楚，他之所以禁猪是因为他本人属猪，又姓朱，与其宗教信仰没有任何关系。禁猪令一出，当时南直隶、山东等地的村市居民被迫宰杀所养的猪，连小猪也都埋掉，明武宗在仪真祭孔时，无猪可用，只得用羊头替代猪头来供奉孔老夫子。明武宗本人既不信奉伊斯兰教，也不忌食猪肉，有明一代，宫廷御膳，就从未断过猪肉。据《大明会典》的记载，负责置办御膳的光禄寺，每年所用牲口数达30100头，其中就有猪18900头。
有大量史料证明，朱元璋是地地道道的汉族人。

陈先生介绍，在朱元璋亲撰的《朱氏世德碑》、《皇陵碑》以及各种诏敕诗文和各种文献史籍中，都未见到朱元璋本人或者他的前辈、后裔信奉伊斯兰教的记载，却有大量崇信佛、道的记载。

登基称帝后，朱元璋不仅大力提倡尊朱（编者注：朱熹）崇儒，还大力扶植佛教和道教。他不仅耗费大量财力、人力和物力，修缮灵谷寺、天界寺、天禧寺等许多佛教寺院，还修复、重建朝天宫等一批道教宫观。他还拨给寺院、宫观大量田土，免除其税粮和差役。

陈先生指出，虽然，朱元璋在尊崇佛、道的同时，也在南京、西安以及西北、闽粤等地敕建过一些清真寺，并御书《至圣百字赞》，称颂伊斯兰教有“协助天运，保庇国民”之功用。但是，这是出于他的“因俗而治”的民族政策的需要。

此外，明朝的陵墓，不论是江苏盱眙的祖陵、安徽凤阳的皇陵、江苏南京的孝陵和东陵，还是北京的十三陵和景泰陵，所有的碑刻都只有汉文而没有阿拉伯文字，雕饰也全是传统的汉族风格而非伊斯兰风格，陵制也全都是在唐宋陵寝制度的基础上发展而成的，与伊斯兰风格的回族坟墓迥然有别。所有这些，无不证明朱元璋是汉族人而非回族。

朱元璋打出“恢复中华”的旗号，声言要“复汉官之威仪”，这也说明他是汉族人。

陈先生认为，最能说明朱元璋的民族成分史料，来自1367年10月他命令将领北伐时所发布的《谕中原檄》。檄文中提出了“驱逐胡虏，恢复中华，立纲陈纪，救济斯民”的斗争口号。而从史料来看，朱元璋是将蒙古人和包括回族在内的色目人都蔑称为“胡虏”，同列为驱逐对象的，只有认同中原文化、归附于他的，才能“永安于中华”，这确凿地说明他不是回民，否则，岂不是自己驱逐自己？此外，他还打出“恢复中华”的旗号，声言要“复汉官之威仪”，这也说明他是汉族人，否则，岂不是成了为他人做嫁衣裳？

陈先生说，正由于朱元璋是汉族人，作为最高的封建统治者，他仍未能摆脱历代汉族统治者的“内诸夏而外夷狄”的大汉族主义思想的束缚，认为“非我族类，其心必异”，对少数民族采取了种种限制的措施。
洪武元年二月，朱元璋下诏恢复唐式衣冠，即禁止“胡服、胡语、胡姓”。许多蒙古、色目人入仕之后，纷纷改用汉姓汉名。朱元璋还禁止蒙古、色目人在本民族内部自相嫁娶，《大明律》明确规定：“凡蒙古、色目人，听与中国人（指汉族）为婚姻，务要两相情愿，不许本类自相嫁娶。违者，杖八十，男女入官为奴。其中国人不愿与回回、钦察为婚姻者，听从本类自相嫁娶，不在禁限。”

明太祖朱元璋是回族人？听到这个与传统观点大相径庭的说法，你也许会大吃一惊。

今年1月22日，《中华读书报》发表了一篇名为《百岁老人周有光答客问》的文章，文中，著名语言学家周有光先生说有新的考证“已经证明了”朱元璋不是汉族而是回族人。此论一出，如一石激起千层浪，引起了明史学界的关注。那么，朱元璋到底是不是回族呢？

■专家简介
陈梧桐
著名明史专家，中央民族大学教授，兼任中国明史学会理事、朱立璋研究会顾问。代表著作有《洪武皇帝大传》、《朱元璋研究》、《黄河传》等。（董毅然）

评论一下：
1。陈梧桐承认：朱元璋在南京、西安以及西北、闽粤等地敕建过一些清真寺，并御书《至圣百字赞》，称颂伊斯兰教有“协助天运，保庇国民”之功用。但是，这是出于他的“因俗而治”的民族政策的需要。
而《至圣百字赞》在《明史》中没有记载，清朝编辑《明史》的时候为什么要这样？见我的分析。
2。著名明史专家陈梧桐 的反驳可以说是软弱无力 。因为他回避了他的台湾同行出版的历史专著，回避了《中国纪行》，回避了裹尸埋葬这个回民习俗，，，

 

-------------
Q:   The truth is that the emperor of MIng was Muslim himself. He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim. All his sailing routes is about muslim. Here is the picture I made. Although I wrote a paper in Chinese that evidence about the ZhuYuanZhang , the emperor of Ming, is Muslim himself. Sorry, do not have time to translate them into English now. Just post it.

A: I've heard the theory that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, however, the term Hui is very modern and artificial in that it is more religious than anything else. There are no clear evidence that any of the Ming emperors were Muslims, if so it would have been well documented. To argue that Yong Le sent out his ships because of his secret believe without letting it known to the official historians and mandarins is quite farfetched.

This post has been edited by warhead: Apr 10 2006, 05:29 PM 
  ---------   
 
I am just interested about when did such arguments really started, here is an article at least give me some clues that it is as early as the year 2004 or earlier.

不知天高地厚的“民间历史学家”何其多
［ 作者：朱修栐 转贴自：新语丝 点击数：4282 更新时间：2/12/2004 文章录入：admin ］

不知天高地厚的“民间历史学家”何其多

朱修栐

　　我曾经写过一篇文章《“民间历史学家”又在胡说八道》，揭露吉林作协会员宫玉海对于中国古代地理名著《山海经》的误读和歪解，登在新语丝网站去年12月22日新到资料里。当时那篇新华社记者采写的新闻报道中，对宫玉海的介绍中有一项是“筹建中的中国《山海经》研究会会长”。巧的是，最近在网上又看到一篇“民间历史学家”吕加平的《从明朝皇帝朱元璋不是汉人而是回民说起》，文章中胡说八道的本事又在宫玉海之上，而这位吕加平先生在文末的自我简介中称自己是“中国二战史研究会会员”。我在网上查到了这个研究会的基本资料（http://www.cass.net.cn/chinese/s22_sls/org_web/group/zgdecdzsyjh.htm），资料中介绍说，这个研究会是“从事第二次世界大战史的群众性学术团体，由中国社会科学院主管，挂靠世界历史研究所”，会长是武汉大学副校长胡德坤。一个由中国最高社会科学研究机构主管的研究会居然能够接收像吕加平这样的妄人入会，也可见中国的学术研究会腐败问题之严重。我相信如果把类似的研究会都列出来，一个一个地调查其会员的“研究”文章，肯定还能揪出更多的南郭先生。

　　吕加平的《从》文认为明朝皇帝朱元璋不是汉人，而是回民，明朝不是汉族王朝，而是回族王朝，其历史应该改写和重释。这个论点及其论据和宫玉海的“新说”一样，是完全建立在根本性的错误之上的。如果真如作者所说，朱元璋是回民的话，明朝势必会成为一个政教合一的伊斯兰教国家，因为在伊斯兰文明受到西方文明冲击以前，所有的信仰伊斯兰教的民族占统治地位的国家无一例外都是政教合一性质，明朝决不可能例外，而事实当然决非如此。伊斯兰教是一神教，其“六信”中，信安拉就表示信仰安拉是唯一的神，这是伊斯兰教的根本教义，但是明嘉靖皇帝却迷信道教。穆斯林讲究“五功”，即念功、礼功、斋功、课功和朝功，而从现存的明朝皇帝实录中，完全看不到一丝一毫“五功”的影子。
伊斯兰教严禁食猪肉，要求每个穆斯林取经名，过“三大节”（开斋节、宰牲节和圣纪），这些在明实录中也完全没有记载。相反，明朝仅在正德十四年（1519年）才因为正德帝属猪，“猪”又和“朱”同音，“禁民间畜猪”，而这个荒唐的禁令也在正德帝死后被废止。吕文也提到穆斯林入葬是不用棺材的，但明朝十六帝除了建文帝下落不明外，其他十五帝入葬都用了棺材。明朝皇帝的这些做法严重违反伊斯兰教教义，再明显不过地说明他们决不可能信仰伊斯兰教。因此，吕文试图通过明朝皇帝的一些习俗推断他们是回民，完全没有意义。

　　更何况，明朝皇帝一直称自己是汉族，比如，称明朝代替元朝为“复汉官之威仪”等等。在和各少数民族政权的对峙中，明政权更是鲜明地体现出汉族政权的特色。按《现代汉语辞典》，民族就是具有共同语言、共同地域、共同经济生活以及表现于共同文化上的共同心理素质的人的共同体。因此，就算将来考证出朱元璋的祖先是信仰伊斯兰教的阿拉伯人或波斯人（这正是回族的族源），从明朝皇帝接受和宣扬的文化来看，他们也只能是汉族，而不是回族。

　　除了这种根本性错误之外，文中不顾事实的低级错误比比皆是。如说明初大杀功臣是怕汉人夺取政权，殊不知明初开国功臣中有许多回族人，如蓝玉、胡大海、常遇春等，除常遇春病卒外，也都被屠杀殆尽，蓝玉正是骇人听闻的“蓝案”的第一受害人。说明朝恢复殉葬制是体现了回族落后于汉族一面，事实上伊斯兰教教义中从无殉葬规定，吕文的这种说法是对伊斯兰教的无理污蔑，很容易伤害回族同胞的感情。说明代所有文艺作品中都不允许出现有关猪和吃猪肉的描写，而众所周知的猪八戒正是诞生于明中叶的四大名著之一《西游记》的主人公。说《水浒传》和《三国演义》是明末清初的作品，而连小学生都知道这两部名著是元末明初的作品。特别是文章后半部分说什么“两千两百年的中国封建社会历史只有一个由汉族当皇帝的汉人朝代”，显示出作者根本不懂得民族学的基本常识。
文末专门写了一节“给汉民族的启发、思考与总结”，这种故意把汉族和其他中华民族对立起来的作法，更是一种不折不扣的种族主义，令人作呕。

 

 

 

 

【附文】从明朝皇帝朱元璋不是汉人而是回民说起

吕加平
(2004年2月3日)见于吕加平个人网站（http://kk8259.w3.to
http://kk8259.5188.org）

一、明朝开国皇帝朱元璋和其家族原来是回人而不是汉人

　　不久前我从一位旅居国外的朋友处得知，中国明朝的开国皇帝朱元璋和其家族并不是汉族，而是回族。我听后很感吃惊，因为在所有的中国历史书中从来没有提到朱元璋是回族人，说得比较多的倒是他出身贫苦，父母早亡，无钱埋葬，只能用草席裹尸掩埋。他因饥寒交迫而流浪乞讨，后来出家到一寺庙当了和尚才算有饭吃。元末农民大起义时他参加了起义军，作战勇敢云云。可是前几天我去拜访一位曾在中国伊斯兰协会担任过领导工作的老同志问及此事时，这位老同志也说朱元璋是回族人，裹尸埋葬这是回民习俗。而且朱元璋年轻时并没有信过佛教，也没有当过和尚，而是因为贫苦无着，曾到一个叫雪里凡的回民清真寺里混过饭吃。朱皇帝的老婆马皇后也是回民，因为回族女人不裹足，所以人称“马大脚”。由于朱家皇族是回民，他们所信任重用的也都是些回族人。明成祖朱棣重用并令其七下南洋的太监郑和本姓马，也是回民，朱棣之所以要派郑和七下南洋，其中重要原因之一是因为南洋即东南亚地区已是伊斯兰教盛行的穆斯林天下，同信伊斯兰教即中国人称回回教的回民建文帝失败后很可能跑到那里混居其中隐匿起来，所以要派一位熟悉伊斯兰教和回民风俗习惯的亲信去那里调查侦察，以利捕捉。这位老同志说，关于朱元璋皇帝和其家族是回族的历史事实，有一位台湾学者曾经研究考证过，确是事实，回族人当过中国的皇帝，建立过一个大朝代，统治过汉族人，这很有意思。

　　我听后更感惊讶了，看来包括我本人在内的几乎所有的中国人都始终把朱元璋看成是汉族人和由汉民族占统治地位的鼎盛大朝的认为是大错特错了。原来汉族人在被蒙古族人武力征服当了九十年蒙人的奴隶后，虽然经元末农民大起义推翻了蒙元王朝，赶走了蒙古人，其结果却又被以朱元璋为首的回族人篡夺去了统治权当了皇帝，汉族人又被回族明王朝所统治。

二、回明王朝的历史应该改写和重释

　　如果历史事实果真如此的话，那么明朝的许多事情也就需要改写或重新解释了，比如：1、朱元璋在建立明朝当了皇帝以后，寻找种种莫须有的罪名和借口，采用极端血腥残暴的手段，将帮他打天下推翻蒙人元朝统治的开国元勋谋士名将们一批批地竭尽残害而斩尽杀绝，这很可能是因为他们都是汉族人，他怕他们据功反叛，推翻他的回族明王朝，恢复汉人统治，所以要进行这场翦除消灭汉族功臣们的种族大血洗。也就是朱元璋杀戮功臣的暴行中有以回压汉的民族压迫和种族清洗的内容，而不仅仅是统治阶级内部的权力斗争；2、朱元璋当上皇帝后要查祖上出身，以荣宗耀祖，显示和抬高自己家族的高贵和当皇帝的名正言顺，可是却始终查寻不到祖上的显赫者。有人便牵强地把宋朝理学名家朱熹列为朱家祖上，朱元璋却断然拒绝，说姓朱者从我算起。朱皇帝这样做很可能是因为他知道自己是回人，因此不能认朱熹这个汉人为祖，尽管朱熹有“朱圣人”之称；3、明朝初建时，有一年南京有一条街的市民们庆祝元宵节时在灯会的春联中有讽刺马皇后的词句，说她是马大脚，可能这是讽刺朱皇帝马皇后是回民。朱皇帝得知后“龙颜”大怒，以文字罪而大开杀戒，即下令将这条街的所有市民和观灯者不分男女老幼全部杀光，一个不留。这很可能是因为朱元璋对于汉族人讽刺和瞧不他们是回族人而所作的民族报复和种族镇压，以此警告汉民不许不满和反对朱家明王朝的回族统治。而朱皇帝因文字罪屠街杀汉，比秦始皇坑杀400多人的儒者更为残暴血腥；4、燕王朱棣用武力篡夺帝位后，竟对不愿为其写即位诏书的方孝孺施行灭十族的酷刑，一举杀尽方家及友、仆、学生等800余口，这种对汉族文人官员杀十族的血腥暴行，实为中国历史所罕见；5、朱元璋定都南京，朱棣迁都北京，而朱家皇族又是回族人，所以也就使南京和北京两市中的回民剧增，非常集中，形成势力；6、汉族人在汉朝时就已取消了奴隶社会野蛮落后的活人殉葬，可是明朝的朱家回民皇族却又一度恢复了殉葬制，这也可表明朱家皇族是落后于汉人文化的回民族。后来入主中原的落后满清也曾实行活人殉葬制；7、回明王朝对汉族官员百姓统治的专制残暴程度在中国历史上是名列前矛的，锦衣卫、东厂的特务横行太为发指，这可能也是朱家回族明王朝害怕汉人起来反抗而采取极端严密残酷的特务控制和民族镇压措施；8、中国四大名著中的两部即《水浒传》和《三国演义》，都作于明末清初年间，可是在书中却找不到猪和吃猪肉的任何情节描写，吃肉全是吃牛肉。有人说这是因为作者施耐庵和罗贯中都是回民，忌谈猪和猪肉。其实更重要的原因可能是在明朝因为朱皇族是回族人，所以所有文艺作品中都不允许出现有关猪和吃猪肉的描写。施、罗这两位明朝遗民在写书时很可能仍在沿袭明朝的这个规矩，就像满清王朝灭亡之后很多汉人仍还不愿剪去满人遗物长辫子一样；9、回明王朝被李自成农民起义推翻后，其遗族建立了南明小朝庭与李自成相抗，后又拒绝与李共同抗清。最后败退逃亡缅甸，被缅王捕捉引渡，入川后全部被清朝所杀，其中有忠于回明王朝的邓小平家族的先人。南明朱家遗族之所以要向东南亚退却，可能是想隐匿于那里的伊斯兰教民中(据说朱皇族的另一支逃亡隐匿于湖南邵阳武冈县)；10、回明王朝被李自成推
翻和被满清入关灭亡后，被满人征服为奴的汉族人虽然进行剧烈反抗，却很少有进行复明斗争的，尤其在台湾郑氏投降后复明斗争更处没落，只有少数青红帮会在暗中活动，这很可能是因为回明朱家对汉族的民族压迫奴役和迫害要比满清更加厉害，汉族人宁做满人的奴才而不愿再恢复回明的统治，就像蒙元王朝屠杀残害汉人太为凶狠，汉人宁做回明奴才，而不愿再做蒙元奴隶一样。等等。

　　由此可见，在中国历史中，原先以为只有蒙元和满清两朝是由非汉族人当皇帝征服和统治汉人的朝代，现在却又知道原来明朝也是由非汉族人所建压迫汉人的朝代。从1279年南宋灭亡以后的700多年间，汉族人先后成为蒙、回、满族统治者征服奴役的奴隶和奴才。

三、两千两百年的中国封建社会历史只有一个由汉族当皇帝的汉人朝代

　　然而不尽如此，如果再往上推去，却可以发现，从秦始皇建立秦朝以后的两千两百多年时间里，汉族人当皇帝和成为统治民族的朝代只有汉朝一个，其他所有朝代全是非汉族人当皇帝执掌统治权而对汉人进行民族压迫奴役的异族统治朝代。

　　比如，秦人所建秦国并由秦始皇灭亡六国而统一中国，建立中央集权的封建专制秦王朝，其秦人和秦始皇家族都不是炎黄子孙的中原华夏族人，而是原先为中原民族也就是后来所称汉族放马的外族人，据说他们是从格鲁吉亚迁移过来的。人们在看过西安秦始皇兵马俑后就可知道，这些秦军将士的脸型根本不是中原人，而是地道的外族人长相。也就是说，秦始皇统一中国，实际上是非华夏中原人即非汉人武力征服汉族人而建立的外族统治王朝。也正因为外族秦人征服和统治汉族人，所以表现得特别残酷无情，比如秦人军队对六国的军民杀起来毫不留情，往往是斩尽杀绝。如秦赵长平之战，秦军一夜之间坑杀投降赵军达40万人，成为世界战争史上一天一次杀戮军队最多的世界之最，而秦始皇在征服六国的十年统一战争中杀死六国士兵达200多万人，中原百姓死伤者更是不计其数。秦始皇统一中国后对被征服六国的统治，其血腥残暴和严酷程度是过去一千八百年夏商周的华夏历朝所无法相比的，这其中更多的是包含有外族征服、民族压迫奴役和种族血腥清洗的内容，而不仅仅是同民族中的阶级矛盾和阶级斗争。

　　汉朝分刘邦家族为皇帝的西汉王朝和其后裔刘秀家族继任汉家天下的东汉王朝，刘邦和其家族当是汉族人，所以西汉东汉的两汉是由汉族人自己当皇帝的汉民族朝代，可是汉朝以后的各朝就不是了：1、东汉以后经三国混战而建立的两晋，其皇帝司马家族，据说并不是汉族人，而是古代北方专门从事马事的游牧民族后裔。司马懿为夺魏权，竟将汉族曹操侄孙魏大将军曹爽兄弟灭三族，诛杀其族人和党羽700余口；2、南北朝后所建的隋朝，其北周大将军后为隋朝开国皇帝的杨坚家族据说也不是汉族人，而是北方少数民族，其子扬广即隋炀帝的荒淫无道专制残暴在中国历代皇帝中是有名的；3、唐朝开国皇帝李渊和其子李世民所建的李唐王朝，他们也不是完全的汉人，而带有鲜卑血统，所以唐朝皇帝特别重用外族人，最后闹了个安史异族之乱，几乎毁了中华文明；4、唐朝灭亡后开始了鲜卑、匈奴、羯、氐、羌五胡闹中华的五代十国时期，这些非汉胡人纷纷建朝立国征服和统治汉民族，最后被后周大将赵匡赢所篡权夺位建立了赵家北宋王朝。然而据说赵家也不是汉族人，而是五胡之中的一个少数民族。后来北宋被来自东北的辽金族所败，宋徽宗父子被俘，北宋灭亡，北方地区沦为辽金的女真人之手。赵家皇族的一支败退江南建立南宋王朝，后被蒙古人所灭，蒙人建立元王朝，把汉族人，尤其是南方汉人列为最末等人，成为蒙人奴隶。而朱元璋利用以汉人为主力的元末农民大起义推翻蒙元王朝建立的明王朝，却也不是汉族人当皇帝的朝代，而是回族人占统治地位的非汉族王朝。至于明以后的满清，和蒙元一样，也是外族征服汉族的非汉族朝代了。

　　可见从秦人秦始皇统一中国后的两千两百多年时间里，中国只有四百多年的两汉是汉人当皇帝和汉人是统治民族的汉族人朝代，其他各朝都是由非汉族当皇帝、汉民族成为被征服被统治的奴隶、奴才和臣民的民族压迫朝代。四、给汉民族的启发、思考与总结

　　在这里，对于中国历史中的秦人、鲜卑人、蒙人、满人甚至辽、金人等非汉族征服和统治汉族人的史实非常清楚，勿庸置疑，其他各朝如晋、隋、宋、明等也是由他族人当皇帝统治汉族人的史实还有待历史学家们调查考证。但是如果这一切都是真的，一方面对自秦以来的中国历史是否需要重新改写需要考虑，另一方面这给占中国人口百分之九十以上绝对多数的绝顶聪明却又悲可叹的汉民族又有什么样的启发呢？中国早在北宋年间就已经发展起了资本主义萌芽，可是其后的近千年时间里其资本主义却始终得不到发展伸张而被严酷打压和无情扼杀，使中国大大落后于后起的西方；中国人、尤其是汉族人胆小怕事，畏惧皇权和官僚权势，害怕外国人和外民族，奴性很强，很不团结，汉奸奴才层出不穷，汉奸文化盛行不衰等等，这是为什么呢？是不是可以从这个先进文化的汉人长期被落后文化的外族征服统治的中国历史中得到一些深层次的思考和总结呢？如果把这一切说成是民族大融合的伟大成果，这对大部分时间处于被外族征服奴役地位的汉民族来说，以及对于中国社会和中华文明的发展来说，所付出的代价是不是实在太大了呢？

写于北京香山普安店

作者简介：上海嘉定人,1941年6月14日生于上海,曾是军人,中国二战史研究会会
员, 在湖南工作近三十年。无党派人士，自由撰稿人，自力从事战略学术研究。
著作有《阴谋与抗争－－肯尼迪总统被剌案起因剖析：猪湾事件》和《中国的战
略失误》(美国美中文化出版公司出版)。

--------------------

Wow, this is the first time I read his article, it is so stereotypical that I almost wanted to stop reading half way through. The article is filled with ethnicity stereotypes, selective sampling(his assessment that the Jin and Song rulers were northern nomads is extremely weak), and a nation-state based view on history. It grossly over emphasize the importance of ethnicity and ridiculously claimed the Han dynasty as the only dynasty where the ruler is of the "Han" ethnic stock.(strange why he didn't consider the Han dynasty as foreign too, since Liu Bang also came from the South, perhaps then he wouldn't be able to make his stereotypical argument since the term Han ethnicity would not even exist for his claims) I must agree with Zhu, how did this guy get promoted to such high levels? 
     --------
Q: I've heard the theory that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, however, the term Hui is very modern and artificial in that it is more religious than anything else. There are no clear evidence that any of the Ming emperors were Muslims, if so it would have been well documented. To argue that Yong Le sent out his ships because of his secret believe without letting it known to the official historians and mandarins is quite farfetched.
A: Right, there was no huiZU 回族in Ming dynasty, but there was huihui since Yuan Dynasty. HuiZu 回族is a name started from PRC. But there is no difference in nature since they all belive in Islam . I have wrote a briaef introducition about the beginning ,developing and establishing HuiZu 回族above.

Right, there is no document in the huge Ming history 明史written by Qing Dynasty, it will take a few years to read all Ming Shi明史. But nothing related Ming Emperor to hui in Ming Shi明史. However, there are historians and folk stories about Ming Emperor is hui in my first post. There are two books published alread. Sorry, I do not have time now to traslate all my article into English. I will appreciate it if anyone like to do that.

 

Q: Wow, this is the first time I read his article, it is so stereotypical that I almost wanted to stop reading half way through. The article is filled with ethnicity stereotypes, selective sampling(his assessment that the Jin and Song rulers were northern nomads is extremely weak), and a nation-state based view on history. It grossly over emphasize the importance of ethnicity and ridiculously claimed the Han dynasty as the only dynasty where the ruler is of the "Han" ethnic stock.(strange why he didn't consider the Han dynasty as foreign too, since Liu Bang also came from the South, perhaps then he wouldn't be able to make his stereotypical argument since the term Han ethnicity would not even exist for his claims) I must agree with Zhu, how did this guy get promoted to such high levels?

A:  First, that article by LUU JIA PING is not mine.

Second, strictly speaking, only HanChao was ruled by HanZu is not an opinion only by LUUJiaPing. I may give you more big names if you want to read them.

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Q: I am just interested about when did such arguments really started, here is an article at least give me some clues that it is as early as the year 2004 or earlier.

A: In 1973, a Taiwanese scholar published a book about the religion of Ming Emperor《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》

So, this is really not new story at all.

The work of Ma is supported by others such a scholar from PRC . Then, the talk of this famous 100years old scholar to an interview got a big hit. One famous Ming Scholar of PRC wrote that ZhuYuanZhang is not HuiHui, his artilce is posted above. But his argument is weak because he did not mention the two books published by his collegues in Taiwan and abroad. What is funny is that he think the strongest evidence deny ZhuYUanZhang is not HuiHUi is Zhu's slogan,repel the barbarian and restore Chian驱除鞑虏 恢复中华. How come he belive a politian's popaganda ?

 

Q: I think the evidence is just slightly better than Menzie's fanatical book, but not much, after reading the authors's comments, it is quite clear that he is very selective in interpreting sources. And after reading the counterargument proposed by Zhu, I think we can conclude that the evidence is simply lacking.

A: Two books published already.

1. in 1516, traveling in China 《中国纪行》

2. in 1973, Religion study about Ming Emperor《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》

What do you think about those two books?

Besides two books, there are also other scholars like famous ZhouYouGuang周有光 support them.

 

Q: I am just interested about when did such arguments really started, here is an article at least give me some clues that it is as early as the year 2004 or earlier.
不知天高地厚的“民间历史学家”何其多
［ 作者：朱修栐 转贴自：新语丝 点击数：4282 更新时间：2/12/2004 文章录入：admin ］

A: I will just comment on the fisrt few paragraph and will comment on the rest later.

 

Q: 不知天高地厚的“民间历史学家”何其多
朱修栐
　　我曾经写过一篇文章《“民间历史学家”又在胡说八道》，揭露吉林作协会员宫玉海对于中国古代地理名著《山海经》的误读和歪解，登在新语丝网站去年12月22日新到资料里。当时那篇新华社记者采写的新闻报道中，对宫玉海的介绍中有一项是“筹建中的中国《山海经》研究会会长”。巧的是，最近在网上又看到一篇“民间历史学家”吕加平的《从明朝皇帝朱元璋不是汉人而是回民说起》，文章中胡说八道的本事又在宫玉海之上，而这位吕加平先生在文末的自我简介中称自己是“中国二战史研究会会员”。我在网上查到了这个研究会的基本资料（http://www.cass.net.cn/chinese/s22_sls/org_web/group/zgdecdzsyjh.htm），资料中介绍说，这个研究会是“从事第二次世界大战史的群众性学术团体，由中国社会科学院主管，挂靠世界历史研究所”，会长是武汉大学副校长胡德坤。一个由中国最高社会科学研究机构主管的研究会居然能够接收像吕加平这样的妄人入会，也可见中国的学术研究会腐败问题之严重。我相信如果把类似的研究会都列出来，一个一个地调查其会员的“研究”文章，肯定还能揪出更多的南郭先生。
A: For many reasons that the historians in PRC did not tell the true history. What credit or authority do they have to look down upon "historians" fron the internet? Any historians have a right comment about Qing Dynasty hisoty? Show me please. All lies. I can give you examples if anyone want to see them.

 

 

Q: 　吕加平的《从》文认为明朝皇帝朱元璋不是汉人，而是回民，明朝不是汉族王朝，而是回族王朝，其历史应该改写和重释。这个论点及其论据和宫玉海的
“新说”一样，是完全建立在根本性的错误之上的。如果真如作者所说，朱元璋是回民的话，明朝势必会成为一个政教合一的伊斯兰教国家，因为在伊斯兰文明
受到西方文明冲击以前，所有的信仰伊斯兰教的民族占统治地位的国家无一例外都是政教合一性质，明朝决不可能例外，而事实当然决非如此。

A: No 政教合一的伊斯兰教国家, because the muslim in Ming Dynasty is still weak, muslim is minority in Ming Dynasty even now. It will be unwise to carry out 政教合一的伊斯兰教国家 in Ming Dynasty. Otherwise they will be thown out .

 

 

Q: 伊斯兰教是一神教，其“六信”中，信安拉就表示信仰安拉是唯一的神，这是伊斯兰教的根本教义，但是明嘉靖皇帝却迷信道教。穆斯林讲究“五功”，即念功、礼功、斋功、课功和朝功，而从现存的明朝皇帝实录中，完全看不到一丝一毫“五功”的影子。
伊斯兰教严禁食猪肉，要求每个穆斯林取经名，过“三大节”（开斋节、宰牲节和圣纪），这些在明实录中也完全没有记载。
A: Right, no single trace could be found about Ming Emperor in MingShi明史. Why? I have explained in the post above. Simply because if all the muslim knew the Ming emperor is muslim too, the muslim will have more reble during Qing Dynasty.

 

Q: 相反，明朝仅在正德十四年（1519年）才因为正德帝属猪，“猪”又和“朱”同音，“禁民间畜猪”，而这个荒唐的禁令也在正德帝死后被废止。

A: There are about 12 or more emperor with “朱”, did others banned pig? Because 属猪 and 猪”又和“朱”同音 the emperor will bann pig? Did anyone think this is rational argument?

Q: 吕文也提到穆斯林入葬是不用棺材的，但明朝十六帝除了建文帝下落不明外，其他十五帝入葬都用了棺材。明朝皇帝的这些做法严重违反伊斯兰教教义，再明显不过地说明他们决不可能信仰伊斯兰教。因此，吕文试图通过明朝皇帝的一些习俗推断他们是回民，完全没有意义。

A: In my article is about the way of ZhuYUanZhang bury his parents not about the way to bury the emperor itself. This is two issue. What mattes is how ZhuYuanZhang bury his parents with white colth, and that is the custom of Muslim.

Q: 十一。问：一个虔诚的回民，不会用猪肉来祭祀他的祖先，而朱元璋做了
答：什么叫政治？什么叫政客？为了权力，李世民把东宫太子李建成杀了，武则天把她儿子宰了。 为了权力，用猪肉来祭祀他的祖先，有那么难以理解么？如果你仔细看一下中国的历史，哪些“皇帝”有的可以说是流氓头子，“皇帝”的同伙甚至是流氓集团。举个例子，孙文今天从日本哪里弄点钱，明天又向俄国或者西方什么国家拉点赞助，之后在中国收买一些黑帮，就变成了“革命事业”，夺权了，再把一些黑帮一脚踢开，理由是黑帮的革命觉悟不高。孙文甚至把各界捐献的钱财私自卷走。

Q 1: Such off-hand dismissals totally undermine the article's credibility.  

A: First, the logic of your argument is wrong. Even that paragraph were wrong that would not deny the credibility of the bools and papers published about ZhuRuanZhang is HuiHui. That papragraph only represent my personal opinion.

Second, your fact is wrong. SunZhongShan was a member of HongBang, JiangJieShi was a member of QingBang. They assasinated people and JiangJieShi assasinated people himself, that was why JiangJieShi fleed to Japan. The assasination was trained by Japanes(?). The so called "revollution" was more or less gave money to gansters. When they took power SunWen dispel those gansters in the name of they did not know much about revolution. 
     
------

 

 If Zhu Yuanzhang were Muslim, one wonders why he didn't treat the Muslim Arabs better. See my article here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2762

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Q: First, the logic of your argument is wrong. Even that paragraph were wrong that would not deny the credibility of the bools and papers published about ZhuRuanZhang is HuiHui. That papragraph only represent my personal opinion.

A: If the issue is about Zhu YuanZhang, bringing in the examples of other historical figures is nothing more than a smoke-screen to avoid addressing the question. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Q: Second, your fact is wrong. SunZhongShan was a member of HongBang, JiangJieShi was a member of QingBang. They assasinated people and JiangJieShi assasinated people himself, that was why JiangJieShi fleed to Japan. The assasination was trained by Japanes(?). The so called "revollution" was more or less gave money to gansters. When they took power SunWen dispel those gansters in the name of they did not know much about revolution.

A: What fact? I did not quote any historical fact.

I simply pointed out that the particular paragraph is trying to avoid answering the question about the incompatibility of the notion Zhu YuanZhang as a Muslim and his handling of pork.

By bringing Sun ZhongShan and Jiang JieShi, the writer is simply trying to dodge the question.
Whether Sun's revolution is about money has absolutely no relevance to whether Zhu was a Muslim. 

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Q: If Zhu Yuanzhang were Muslim, one wonders why he didn't treat the Muslim Arabs better. See my article here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2762

A: Great paper.

But

No controversy about you article with mine. Mine is about the rapid increase of HuiHui in Ming Dynasty, not about the GuangZhou Port flourish or perish.

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Q: For many reasons that the historians in PRC did not tell the true history. What credit or authority do they have to look down upon "historians" fron the internet? Any historians have a right comment about Qing Dynasty hisoty? Show me please. All lies. I can give you examples if anyone want to see them
A: I don't see any reason for the PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin, PRC has always promoted multi ethnicity, not Han chauvinism. The only thing I see is an immature stereotypical comment on the side of the internet publisher who has clear racial agendas. There is a much greater degree of professionalism on the side of the PRC's historian. Lu's sample selectivity is obvious. The only lies I see is his groundless ethnic prejudiced comments. Which sources mention that Zhao Kuan Yin is a barbarian? Which sources mention that Sima Yan is a barbarian? The author is not only applying double standards in his fanatical ethnic theories, his "prove" is extremely skewed in favour of his pre-determined ethnic bias.

Q: There are about 12 or more emperor with “朱”, did others banned pig? Because 属猪 and 猪”又和“朱”同音 the emperor will bann pig? Did anyone think this is rational argument?

A: I'm sorry, but you are using a deductive argument, you need to show much more prove than simply the decision of one single Ming emperor banning pigs, the evidence is too sketchy to make any conclusive claims, much less to the degree of "changing the textbook". If anything, the taboo is a traditional Daoist superstition, it only show the Ming emperors are more Daoists than any other religion. You are still ignoring the fact that both Ming Xian Zong and Jia Jing are fanatical Daoists, Xian Zong brought a bunch of Daoists to court such as Li Mu Shen and Zhang Yuan Ji. There were so many Daoists and Buddhist monks at court that it became a heavy drain to the empire's finance., According to Ming Xian Zong Shi Lu， he built so many temples that “所费动数十万计" The emperor Jia Jing constantly dress himself up as a Daoist, was crazy about Daoist elixirs and immortality. Shi Zong loves magic, he is an ardent student of Xuan Xue. The 明史纪事本末 clearly documents that he is a seaker of longevity. Shi Zong built countless Dao Changs. The Daoist Shao Yuan Jie from Jiang Xi, Long hu shang Qing Gong was a favourite of Shi Zong and he got a personal temple at the capital called Zheng Ren Fu, in the 15th year of Jia Qing he became the Li Bu shang shu. Other Daoists Shi Zong brought to court includes Tao Zhong Wen who is said to be able to turn silver into elixirs. Furthermore Jia Jing has lots of superstitious taboos, such as 二龙不相见, hence never set up a crown prince. If you think the pig taboo is irrational, I say this one is just as irrational, but superstition is always irrational, so rationality is a weak argument here.
OTher emperors are also devout Buddhists and Daoists, for example, Ming Shen Zong is also a great promoter of Buddhism because his mother is a devout Buddhist. He spent countless treasure on buddhist temples to satisfy the empress dowager to the degree of largely draining the imperial treasury.
Your muslim argument is interesting, but it is too selective, history has shown Ming emperors to be tolerant of many religions, and Islam is but one of them.

-----------
Q: I don't see any reason for the PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin, PRC has always promoted multi ethnicity, not Han chauvinism.

A: I don't see any reason for the PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin
My understanding about why PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin:

1. PRC is communist country. As a member of communist he must be MinZu Zhuyi Zhe (racism or nationalism ?). Some ccp member consider nationalism is Hanlism. The truth of HuiHui Ming Dunasty is something they can not accecpt. So they lie, such as other lies they are still telling about Chengho finding America, about so called 5000 years chinese history. Does China have 5000 years history? I read some forieghn paper and they said about 4000 years.

2. PRC claimed them of the real heritage or student of SunZhongShan. The revolution slogan of SunZhongShan was QuiChuDaLu. How could they tolerate the fact that Ming Dynasty was Huihui? SunZhongShan' s QuiChuDaLu learned from ZhuYuanZhang. If Ming Dynasty was proved to be HuiHui , then the QuiChuDaLu to recover Han from ManZu will be changed to recover HuiHui from ManZu. What a joke............

Now, I will show you something. In 90s , PRC published a book of telling Ming Dynasty in detail《细说明朝》by LiDonfFang黎东方. Why the PRC changed the way of ZhuYuanZhang using white cloth burying his pesent with old clothes when ZhuYUanZhang was 17 years old?

 

这个是大陆出版细说系列的介绍
显然
大陆的版本被加工成了“洁版”
正如海外其他一些书籍在大陆出版也要变成“洁版”一样
看看我标记的红色和蓝色
大陆和台湾版本的差别

 

黎东方先生所著《细说三国》、《细说元朝》、《细说明朝》、《细说清朝》及《细说民国》（大陆版更名为《细说民国创立》）于20世纪70年代前后陆续在台湾出版后，受到读者的热烈欢迎，一再重版加印。90年代后期，以上五种《细说》的简体字横排本在大陆出版
[url=http://www.spph.com.cn/books/bkview.asp?bkid=29882&cid=51808

台湾版的原文
海外著名史学家黎东方博士所着的细说中国历史系列中《细说明朝》记载：

“他是贫农家庭的安分守己的子弟，在他十七岁的一年，元顺帝至正四年(1344年)旱灾，蝗虫与瘟疫先后降临到他的家乡，濠州钟离县(安徽凤阳)，父亲朱世珍，母亲陈氏，大哥朱兴隆，在几天内相继去世，家里的现款极少，买不起三口棺材，更买不起坟地，幸亏有邻居刘家心好，准他和二哥朱兴盛把父母和大哥三人的尸首用白布裹起，埋在刘家坟地的一个角落。”

大陆版的网络版原文：
他是贫农家庭的“安分守己”的子弟。在他十七岁的一年，元顺帝至正四年(公元1344年)，旱灾、蝗虫与瘟疫，先后降临到他的家乡濠州钟离县(安徽凤阳)。父亲朱世珍，母亲陈氏，大哥朱兴隆，在几天以内相继去世。家里的现款极少，买不起三口棺材，更买不起坟地。幸亏有邻居刘家心好，准他和二哥朱兴盛，把父母大哥三人的尸首，用旧衣服裹了，埋在刘家坟地的一个角落

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Custom of burying dead people of HuiHui with white cloth“开凡”

回族葬礼：
回族称死人为“无常”、“归真”或“殁了”，切忌说“死”。称尸体为“埋体”，称送葬为“送埋体”。对埋体主张速葬，不得超过三天。回族不信风水地脉,只要是平稳干燥的地方就可做墓地,实行土葬。人咽气后,守护者将遗体头北脚南放置,亲友吊唁,送以钱、物，以助葬费，但禁止送花圈、帐联。亡人的面容身体要美观清洁，埋体要经过修面、修胡须，理掉过长的头发，其他部位过长的毛发也要剪短或剃掉。还要修剪手指和脚趾甲，清除污垢。 葬前要给“埋体”清水净身（俗称“着水”），再穿上用新白布制成无袖无领的“开凡”。男人的“开凡”通常为三块，一块叫“皮拉汗”（波斯语坎肩之意）是覆盖前身的白布；一条叫“小卧单”，是垫在身下相当于褥子的白布；一块叫做“大卧单”，是在外层包裹整个“埋体”的白布。女人的“开凡”还要增加用做盖头和裹胸（也叫缠腰）的两块白布。举行转“费达”（赎罪）仪式。然后举行站“折纳孜”（殡礼）的仪式。殡礼主持人一般是有名望的阿訇。仪式开始时，将“埋体”置于“塔布提”匣子中（一种底层可以抽拉的无盖的大木匣子），抬到葬地，置于墓穴之上，头北面西，主持仪式的阿訇为亡人祈祷，并带领大家念“赞主词”三次。仪式后，即送“埋体”入坟，葬穴为长2米，宽1米深约2米的直坑，在直坑底部向西侧挖一洞（以平放遗体为限）。当埋体按照教规放入洞内后，再将洞门用土坯封住，并用黄土填满直坑，地面用砖、土筑成脊形坟墓。与此同时，在送“埋体”的沿途中，要为亡人散“乜贴”，数额大小不等，根据家庭条件而定。并将亡人衣物散给洗尸人员和亲友，有的还要给前来送“埋体”的众人散白帽戴孝。亡人葬后逢七 、二七、三七、四十天、百日、周年、三年、十年，都要请阿訇念经，表示纪念。

 

台湾马明道参照该书及明正史、野史、史学家的评述、回民口碑传说， 对明朝王室的族属和宗教信仰进行了详尽的研究考证， 于1973年写出《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》一书。 确认朱元璋、马皇后及其家族和亲戚均为回回。

Q: Lu's sample selectivity is obvious. The only lies I see is his groundless ethnic prejudiced comments. Which sources mention that Zhao Kuan Yin is a barbarian? Which sources mention that Sima Yan is a barbarian? The author is not only applying double standards in his fanatical ethnic theories, his "prove" is extremely skewed in favour of his pre-determined ethnic bias.

A: 1. We are talking about my article not Lu's posted by someone else but not mine. I did not post Lu's article.

2. I agree with you that Lu is somewhat Han extremist.

3. Even my artilce is the same or worth than Lu's , the book I provided is still the strongest evedience of ZhuYuanZhang is HuiHui.

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Emperor Zhu Yuan Zhang, with forieghn looks ( SeMuRen?)

 

Actually, Zhu Yuanzhang happened to have ugly/horrible appearance. Officials had artists drew the handsome portrait of him...
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Q: 1. PRC is communist country. As a member of communist he must be MinZu Zhuyi Zhe (racism or nationalism ?). Some ccp member consider nationalism is Hanlism. The truth of HuiHui Ming Dunasty is something they can not accecpt.
A: That was a mockery of facts. Feedback is an important aid to process of self-correction, but unfortunately you appear to have no idea of PRC ethnic ideology. Such incredible mismanagement of information can only partly be attributable to decontextualisation by the search engine. Before you post erroneous theories such as this, you should at least read the works of top PRC historians. Because you have completely misinterpreted PRC nationalism. Communism has nothing to do with Min Zu Zhu Yi. Your mis-association of communism with nationalism only shows that you haven't read Marx at all, since its the complete contrast of nationalistic principles. And its ironic how you accuse PRC Han chauvinism, when its the ROC and Hong Kong publishers that has repeatedly demonostrated this trait, if you really read PRC books, you should know that they promote multi ethnic familyhood, its the Hong Kong textbooks that downplay the Qing. Yet, ironically you had the false illusion that it was the PRC which did so when the complete opposite is true. The PRC is the first to praise the Qing as an empire which tripled China's boundaries. So no, the Hui theory would mean nothing to the PRC other than another minority regime within the big Chinese national family. It would seem the only people which lies about ethnic history are the early ROC and HongKongese historians.

 

Q: So they lie, such as other lies they are still telling about Chengho finding America, about so called 5000 years chinese history.

A: Its incredible that you accuse the PRC historians of lying about such theories when they are some of the staunchest opponents of this groundless polemic proposed by Gavin Menzie, the ex-British marine. Not only does it show that you have not read PRC historian's works, but you have never read 1421 either, and it becomes obvious that your theory is based out of the context from a web site featuring third-hand research. That fundamental, undeniable blunder is why you keep digging yourself into an ever deeper hole by making further false and misleading insinuations about how the Chinese government writes history, which has always been based as much as possible on accessible facts, not unsupported hypothesis. And while necessarily biased, top PRC historians at least have the virtue of transparency, which is more than can be said of Lu Jia Ping.  
Furthermore, the claim that the Ming is a Hui regime is nothing but a ethnic fanaticist comment. Even if there are proves that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, it becomes completely irrelevant after the third generation because the rest of the Ming emperor has more Han blood in them due to maternal marriage, and since they called themselves Hans, believes traditional Chinese superstition instead of Islam, they are as good as Han and not Hui.  
     -------
 Q: Actually, Zhu Yuanzhang happened to have ugly/horrible appearance. Officials had artists drew the handsome portrait of him...

A: How about this. Looks close to the real Zhu

 

Q: If the issue is about Zhu YuanZhang, bringing in the examples of other historical figures is nothing more than a smoke-screen to avoid addressing the question. There is nothing wrong with that.
What fact? I did not quote any historical fact.

I simply pointed out that the particular paragraph is trying to avoid answering the question about the incompatibility of the notion Zhu YuanZhang as a Muslim and his handling of pork.

By bringing Sun ZhongShan and Jiang JieShi, the writer is simply trying to dodge the question.
Whether Sun's revolution is about money has absolutely no relevance to whether Zhu was a Muslim.

A: I am not trying to dodge the question. What I am trying to say is to tell the simple fact that politicians will do anything for the power or throne. Words or act from politcian can not me trusted in the ancient time or even now.

Q: And its ironic how you accuse PRC Han chauvinism, when its the ROC and Hong Kong publishers that has repeatedly demonostrated this trait, if you really read PRC books, you should know that they promote multi ethnic familyhood, its the Hong Kong textbooks that downplay the Qing.

A: Hope the following will tell you how the PRC downplayed Qing dynasty. It is common knowledge to most people in PRC that old China was poor and have nothing. Is this true?
慈禧mm万岁，万岁，万万岁！
慈禧太后（一八三五—一九○八），是晚清同治、光绪两朝的最高决策者，她以垂帘听政、训政的名义统治中国四十七年。长期以来，大都只讲慈禧祸国殃民，把一些与慈禧毫不相干的恶行也加在慈禧的身上。在人们的心中，慈禧已成为一个昏庸、腐朽、专横、残暴的妖后。那么，历史上的慈禧究竟是怎样一个人呢？

一。从中国重农抑商政策的改变，看慈禧太后的伟大
生产力决定生产关系，经济基础决定上层建筑。 "民以食为天",这主要是由当时的经济发展状况决定的 . 首先，重农抑商起自先秦，也就是春秋战国时期。在汉朝得到强化。表现在下列几个方面：第一，不许商人穿丝绸衣服，不许乘车或骑马；第二，不许商人 “ 名田 ” ，即购买土地， “ 犯者以律论 ” ，凡土地和奴婢超过法定数额则没入官府；第三，不许 “ 推择为吏 ” ，即不许商人及其子孙到官府去做官， “ 犯者以律论 ” ；第四， “ 重租税以困辱之 ” ，法律规定， “ 贾人与奴婢倍算 ” ，商人所纳算赋比一般老百姓要增加一倍；第五，谪发，也叫谪戍，迁徙商人到边远地区戍守。
重农抑商的根源: 1。时代的需要：封建社会是自给自足的自然经济，农业是最具决定性的生产部门，农业生产的状况直接关系到国家兴衰和人民生计， 所谓一饱忘了千年饥，古代常常 是粮食不足。因此，以农立国成为历代统治者的治国纲领。 2。儒家思想：孔孟都是尊农的。 3。统治阶层的需要：封建社会的统治集团是地主阶级。 4。稳定的统治：农业是一种自给自足的产业，百性固定在一处，而商业使百姓流动，不方便统治。 商人有可能把本该由国家赚的钱中饱私囊，如果是奸商，还会造成社会不稳定。从统治者的角度出发，农民比商人要好统治何止千万倍。 以上三个因素的结合，就是中国古代重农抑商的根源与传统。
经济基础决定上层建筑，当控制一个社会的经济命脉逐渐转为资产阶级的时候，封建社会也就开始灭亡了。 慈禧的洋物运动，是自上而下的打破中国上千年的封建体制。尽管宋朝和明朝也有资本主义的萌芽，但那都是私人行为，比如朱元章是最很商人的。 清朝晚期的商品经济开始发达，资产阶级成长壮大，于是，慈禧采用了适合生产力的君主立宪制。因此，封建社会在慈禧新政的8年中逐渐消灭了，也就是说，清朝的 晚期不再是传统意义上的封建社会了。 通常说的辛亥革命推翻了封建王朝是错误的，因为，清朝末期在经济和政治上都不再符合封建社会的定义。慈禧为中国从封建社会走向资本主义社会，从古代走向现代，在经济和政治上都做出了伟大的贡献。 兴办洋务，开创了改革开放的新局面，奠定了中国现代化的基础 ，这个重大意义怎么评价都不过分。 还有，派人留学，废除科举而兴办学堂，办报。辛亥革命后的各种新气象， 不过是慈禧新政的延续。
这里，再说一件事，看看慈禧的手腕。清王朝的一部分中央和地方官员主张学习西方近代的科学技术，训练新军，购买枪炮、军舰，发展中国的军事工业和民用工业，以达到富国强兵的目的。他们的代表人物，在中央有奕?、文祥，在地方有曾国藩、李鸿章、左宗棠、张之洞。尽管他们的改革没有触及封建专制的政治制度和社会制度，但是，在顽固派看来，却是“用夷变夏”，违背了祖宗成法和圣贤古训。所以，洋务运动一开始，就遭到顽固派的坚决反对。1866年12月，奕?奏请在同文馆内添设分馆，招收科举出身的人员学习天文、数学。大学士倭仁亲自出马，上书慈禧，坚决反对。他认为，让科举出身的人员向外国人学习天文、数学是斯文扫地。他声称，中国之大，不愁没有人才，只要多方访求，一定可以找到精通天文、数学的人，为什么一定向外国人学习呢！慈禧让他保举几名精通天文、数学的人才，并由他负责选定地方办一个天文数学馆与同文馆分馆互相砥砺。他只好承认实无可保之人。慈禧又让他到主持洋务的总理事务衙门行走。倭仁一向痛恨洋务，现在要他去办洋务，感到是对自己侮辱，再三推辞，慈禧却不肯收回成命，弄得这位顽固派的代表人物十分难堪。他到上书房给同治帝讲课，有所感触，不禁流下了眼泪。倭仁最后以养病为理由，奏请开缺。经慈禧批准，免去他的一切职务。由于慈禧的支持，洋务运动才得以冲破重重阻力向前发展，成为中国近代化的开端。

二。统一战线与慈禧中兴：慈禧知人善用，重用汉人，手下能人太多了，曾国藩,胡林翼,左宗棠,李鸿章,骆秉章都是当时的大 英雄，拿到历史上任何时代也是响当当的。她手下的袁大头的本事也堪比曹操。让 这样一大批能人甘心受她的指挥，足见她的用人能力。 早年协助咸丰皇帝处理国是，确立了正确的政治路线和思想路线 ，是咸丰年间政策方针的实际制定者。开创了同光中兴的基础。同光中兴 实际上就是就是慈禧中兴，以当时内忧外患情形之下，实为中国数千年来之异彩。

三。在中国历史上首次推出君主立宪制，如果不是她改革步子太大，如果不是内外势 利的逼迫，如果不是她早早告别人世，中国的今天很有可能是日本或者英国的政治体制。

四。平捻乱，白莲教乱以及回民和苗民起义。太平天国与义和拳,那个是好玩的? 恐怕道光咸丰活转来也玩不转. 勇于并敢于相信群众，放手发动群众反抗外国侵略，发动了轰轰 烈烈的义和团运动，后世的文革，实有效颦焉。

五。1906年下禁缠足令，开中国解放妇女之先河。杨乃武小白菜一案, 足见慈禧之英明与无奈.

六。智禽肃顺，内除权臣，维护了安定团结的稳定局面。禽肃顺意义 重大，怎么评价都不过分，当中体现的大智大勇，艰难曲折，实在有超过 康熙，更是说明太后的过人之处。倘使慈禧多活10年, 袁世凯敢玩得出那么拙劣的窃国把戏么?

七。慈禧的武功：英明决策，平定西北，收复新疆，千秋功业，莫此为甚矣。伟哉 太后，壮哉太后。以当时的情势能做出这个决策，并能够贯彻始终，太英 明了、太伟大了。当时朝廷的两条路线斗争十分激烈，全靠太后定策庙堂 ，顶住了以李鸿章为首的黑司令部的干扰和反对，挽救了中国，挽救了大 清。

八。中日甲午战争失败后，帝国主义掀起了瓜分中国的热潮，民族危机空前严重。在维新派的影响下，光绪锐意变法。变法和反变法的斗争非常激烈。1898年6月11日，慈禧面告光绪：“前日御史杨深秀、学士徐致靖言国是未定，良是。今宜专讲西学，明白宣示。”于是，光绪发布了由翁同和起草的《定国是诏》，把讲求西学，变法自强，作为清王朝的国策，使维新运动取得了合法地位。但是实行改革后不久，光绪和几个书生犯了急躁的毛病，要搞大跃进，同时, 革命党人趁机起事。在戊戌年春夏之交的那一场风波中，慈禧审时度势，冷静应对，果断 平息了这一场动乱，维护了来之不易的稳定局面。事后，康有为和梁启超在洋人的帮助下，逃亡国外。那是一小撮别有用心的 人，利用中央工作中的一些失误，欺骗不明真相的群众，勾结国外反华势力，妄图制造动乱，颠覆政府，篡夺权力，其居心十分险恶，如果不是一 批以太后为首的老同志还在，结果不堪设想。同光中兴事业就完全有可能被葬送。英明哉，太后。

九。精神文明和物质文明两手一起抓，国防建设和文化建设并重，在太后的大力支持下，为体现同光中兴的伟大成就，建设了颐和园这一文化 瑰宝，留存后世。后来有人攻讦说是挪用海军经费，这是推托战败责任的说法。历史证明，这个“挪用”是完全正确的，唯一的错误就是“挪用” 的还不够。因为历史证明，即使再投入10倍的军费，依然改变不了打败的命运。当时不“挪用”，结果只会是黄海海底多一艘残骸，而颐和园就不 会有了，大家说，是要一艘残骸，还是要颐和园呢。 甲午战败责任主要在李鸿章，当时，以李鸿章为首，以“海归派 ”为骨干形成了一个黑司令部，他们欺骗太后，把持了海军的建设和指挥 大权，历史证明这是一帮祸国殃民的坏蛋。历史证明，内部的敌人比外部 的敌人更可怕，危害更大。警惕阿，善良的人们！！！！！

王莽 和慈禧 有点类似的地方
1。王莽 在儒家一统天下人思想的时候，王莽是非正统的，王莽违背了儒家礼教中的“家天下”，受到知识分子的攻击，现在也这样。而以现在的政治观点看，成王败寇，王莽在这一点上没什么错。给王莽平反要到什么时候呢？

2。慈禧：也是受儒家文化的影响，一个女人执政怎么让大男人受得了。无论王莽和慈禧怎么努力，都免不了被咒骂的，中国的这个传统文化哦，，，，

3。王莽 和慈禧 的失败都是因为自己的改革新政，本意是好的，但都太快太急
王莽 的改革得罪了大批的权贵。日本的维新用了20年，慈禧 的新政却只用了8年，尽管在中国第

 

 

Q:Furthermore, the claim that the Ming is a Hui regime is nothing but a ethnic fanaticist comment. Even if there are proves that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, it becomes completely irrelevant after the third generation because the rest of the Ming emperor has more Han blood in them due to maternal marriage, and since they called themselves Hans, believes traditional Chinese superstition instead of Islam, they are as good as Han and not Hui.

A: Do you know why the population of huihui in PRC keep growing while some huihui marryied to Han or other ethinics?

Q: 更何况，明朝皇帝一直称自己是汉族，比如，称明朝代替元朝为“复汉官之威仪”等等。在和各少数民族政权的对峙中，明政权更是鲜明地体现出汉族政权的特色。按《现代汉语辞典》，民族就是具有共同语言、共同地域、共同经济生活以及表现于共同文化上的共同心理素质的人的共同体。因此，就算将来考证出朱元璋的祖先是信仰伊斯兰教的阿拉伯人或波斯人（这正是回族的族源），从明朝皇帝接受和宣扬的文化来看，他们也只能是汉族，而不是回族。

A: There were books published already that ZhuRuanZhang is HuiHui. ZhuRuanZhang was successful in making huihui blend into the majority Han Zu, while keep the population of huihui in Ming Dynasty growing. Zhu did restostore the Han culture in Ming but that was a disater to China. Respecting only to KongZi or Rujia theory make ming weak in military, economy and closed door policy. In contrast Yuanchao respect KongZI too but not completely, four religions grow at the same time, that is something similar the era bfore Qin Dynasty. That is one reason why Yuan Chao is great in culture and trading abroad. Yuan dynasty has trade relations with about 140 countries. But Zhu is huhui or not is about his belive in islam in his heart. Zhu wrote a one hundred word of praise to Islam, this proved him a muslim.

 

Q: 除了这种根本性错误之外，文中不顾事实的低级错误比比皆是。如说明初大杀功臣是怕汉人夺取政权，殊不知明初开国功臣中有许多回族人，如蓝玉、胡大海、常遇春等，除常遇春病卒外，也都被屠杀殆尽，蓝玉正是骇人听闻的“蓝案”的第一受害人。说明朝恢复殉葬制是体现了回族落后于汉族一面，事实上伊斯兰教教义中从无殉葬规定，吕文的这种说法是对伊斯兰教的无理污蔑，很容易伤害回族同胞的感情。说明代所有文艺作品中都不允许出现有关猪和吃猪肉的描写，而众所周知的猪八戒正是诞生于明中叶的四大名著之一《西游记》的主人公。说《水浒传》和《三国演义》是明末清初的作品，而连小学生都知道这两部名著是元末明初的作品。
A: Agree. Lu made some simple mistakes. But Lu's article did have some good evidence such as the masscre in NanJing because someone said Zhu's wife had a big feet. I may comment that later.

《水浒传》 发生时间：1370年 ，施耐庵，元末明初人
《三国演义》发生时间：1371年 ，罗贯中，生卒年月不详。卒于明初。

 

Q: 特别是文章后半部分说什么“两千两百年的中国封建社会历史只有一个由汉族当皇帝的汉人朝代”，显示出作者根本不懂得民族学的基本常识。文末专门写了一节“给汉民族的启发、思考与总结”，这种故意把汉族和其他中华民族对立起来的作法，更是一种不折不扣的种族主义，令人作呕。

A: Like it or not, strictly speaking only Han Dynasty is ruled by Han Zu. And Han extremist is common fact on the intrnet and even in the text books. For example, the PRC keep telling that 56 ethnics are the same and belong to the one warm familly. But in the text book it tell you about QuiChuDaLu, praise WenTianXiang a MinZu hero. Yes, WenTianXiang is a hero but the fact is praising WenTianXiang will hurt the feeling of some mongolians. Why not PRC praise some nutral hero like the soldoers in korea war or heros in the war against Japan's invasion?

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Q: Hope the following will tell you how the PRC downplayed Qing dynasty. It is common knowledge to most people in PRC that old China was poor and have nothing. Is this true?

A: Your "evidence" is completely irrelevant, the PRC downplays backward feudalism in general, and the Qing is but one of these feudal regimes. It has never been singled out as a foreign government thats criticised(unlike the ROC). The Ming is treated as backward and feudal just the same. If you actually read PRC historians such as Yan Cong Nian, you'll know that they have actually bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves. Some even went as far as proposing the Qing as the greatest dynasty in Chinese history. Your misinformation in that aspect is the reason your whole theory, which focused more on the integrity of the Chinese government rather than the facts themselves, is obsolete.

Q: Agree. Lu made some simple mistakes. But Lu's article did have some good evidence such as the masscre in NanJing because someone said Zhu's wife had a big feet. I may comment that later.
A: I've already posted this on the boot binding thread, (and its only one household, not the whole city) the reason has much less to do with the Hui nature of Zhu's wife, foot finding for commoners simply isn't as common as it was towards the end of the Ming. Just because Empress Ma did not bind her feet doesn't mean she is a Hui.

Q: Zhu wrote a one hundred word of praise to Islam, this proved him a muslim.

A: Umm, no it doesn't. Temples have received praise from emperors all the time. Buddhist and Daoist temples have received praise from emperors from many dynasties, that doesn't mean the emperor is of that religion. It only shows the relative religious tolerance of imperial China.

Q: But in the text book it tell you about QuiChuDaLu, praise WenTianXiang a MinZu hero. Yes, WenTianXiang is a hero but the fact is praising WenTianXiang will hurt the feeling of some mongolians.

A: Thats only inherited from past traditions, there are some people in the PRC circle that do want to change the textbook and depose the title of national hero regarding to people such as Yue Fei, Yuan Chong Huan and Wen Tian Xiang.

This post has been edited by Zuo Zongtang: Yesterday, 07:07 PM  
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Q: Great paper.

But

No controversy about you article with mine. Mine is about the rapid increase of HuiHui in Ming Dynasty, not about the GuangZhou Port flourish or perish.

A: Actually there is if you read the last part carefully. I argue that Zhu Yuanzhang discriminated against Muslims, and this caused many Arabs to leave China. Those who stayed behind became the Hui.
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Q: I juust said historically he's ugly. I didn't say he's foreigner or not.

A: just ugly? not foreighn?

Q: Your "evidence" is completely irrelevant, the PRC downplays backward feudalism in general, and the Qing is but one of these feudal regimes. It has never been singled out as a foreign government thats criticised(unlike the ROC). The Ming is treated as backward and feudal just the same. If you actually read PRC historians such as Yan Cong Nian, you'll know that they have actually bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves. Some even went as far as proposing the Qing as the greatest dynasty in Chinese history. Your misinformation in that aspect is the reason your whole theory, which focused more on the integrity of the Chinese government rather than the facts themselves, is obsolete.

A: 1.What do u mean downplayed? Why PRC does not downplay Tang Dynasty?

2.Yan Cong Nian is different from most PRC historians, but he was still not fiar when commenting on CiXi.

3.Yan Cong Nian bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves? Then what did Qing deserve? Who is better, Qing vs Tang dynasty? I think Qing is better than Tang in general

Q: Actually there is if you read the last part carefully. I argue that Zhu Yuanzhang discriminated against Muslims, and this caused many Arabs to leave China. Those who stayed behind became the Hui.

A:  not agree with you.

1. Despise merchants was a general policy to all merchants not just to aranbians alone.
2. Since ZhuYuanZhang adopted "close door" policy, the merchant like the aranbians could not make much money in the port city like GuangZhou. Some went back to Aranbic, some continued to make money but in other cities like HangZhou.
3. Ming Dynasty was a golden era to Hui ZU. That was a common knowledge to all PRC historians. The changes in GuangZhou along could not deny that.
4.Pu Shougeng 's case was related to politics. Because Pu Shougeng betrayed Song Dynasty and served Yuan Dynasty. When politics got invovled, it made no difference whether you were muslim or even a member of the roayl familly. Although, ZhuYuanzhang hated merchants.

Folowing is the last part of your paper. For the sake of convinience to readers, I post it here. Hope you do not mind.

Quanzhou as a cosmopolitan entrepot

The growth of Quanzhou into Song China’s greatest port has certainly received its fair share of study after 1954, most notably by Hugh Clark in 1991 and So Kee Long in 2000. Despite the Song court’s attempts for a century from 989 to restrict trade to Guangzhou and Hangzhou, by 1087 Quanzhou was so “clogged with foreign ships”, their goods “piled like mountains”, that the court had to acknowledge its appeal to foreigners and make the trade fully legal. Thereafter, Quanzhou’s continued success was founded on two related aspects of Song trade policy: firstly, the Song court sought to compensate for its loss of the Silk Road to its enemies (especially after it also lost north China to the Jurchen invasion in 1127) by intensively promoting private maritime trade among Chinese merchants; secondly, it also actively created a favourable environment for foreign merchants to trade and settle in its port cities.

The inclusive, cosmopolitan atmosphere of Quanzhou during the Song is best reflected in its fanfang (“foreigners’ streets”), tracts of land allocated by the government for residence by various foreign communities. These communities were granted a degree of legal autonomy under which they could be subject to the law of their home country. They were also allowed to build their own places of worship, and the mosques of Quanzhou are particularly famous. While there is evidence of Tamil, Srivijayan, Nestorian Christian and Manichaean communities, the Muslim population (which also included some Persians) was by far the largest, because “it was common practice among west Asian merchants to establish agents in foreign ports as full-time residents”. The key role of the Arabs as middlemen was deeply appreciated by the Southern Song court: in 1136 an Arab merchant named Pu Luoxin was awarded an honorary rank in recognition of his contributions to the frankincense trade, and the next year the emperor even issued an edict urging another prominent merchant, Pu Yali, not to retire. But the peak of Arab power in Quanzhou would be reached only toward the end of the Southern Song, when the Arab Pu Shougeng was appointed as the trade superintendent of Quanzhou – and then turned the port over to the invading Mongols.

From Pu Shougeng to the Sipahi

Pu Shougeng’s grandfather had moved to Guangzhou from Champa and become extremely wealthy, but by the early 13th century, diminishing trade at Guangzhou had reduced the family fortune considerably. Shougeng’s father Kaizong then did what many other Arab merchants must have done, relocating the family to Quanzhou ‘where the money was’. However, they arrived to find Quanzhou itself in recession from a combination of factors including high tariffs, inflation, and piracy. Indeed, by the 1230s, merchants in Quanzhou were relocating to the Guangzhou area! Nonetheless Pu Kaizong stayed, and gained an honorary rank by 1233. The Pu slowly rebuilt their wealth, assembled a private navy, and in 1274 Shougeng and his brother gained official ranks as a reward for using it to suppress pirates.

In 1276, as the Mongols received the surrender of the Song court at Hangzhou, loyalist forces proclaimed a young Song prince as their new emperor and raised the flag of resistance in Fuzhou. They gave Pu Shougeng the trade superintendency and military command over Fujian and Guangdong, hoping to enlist his fleet in aid of their cause. But when they sailed into Quanzhou’s harbour, Shougeng had already secretly surrendered to the Mongols and was laying a trap for them. Suspecting this, the loyalists captured more than 400 of Shougeng’s ships and left; in a rage, Shougeng ordered his servants (who numbered several thousand) to massacre some 3,000 members of the Song imperial clan who resided in Quanzhou, as well as all loyalist Song officials and soldiers in the city.

Pu Shougeng’s cooperation with the Mongols secured his reappointment as trade superintendent. Quanzhou was spared from further violence in the invasion, and although the loyalist fleet blockaded the port for 3 months in 1277, they were eventually driven off by Mongol reinforcements. Even before the loyalists were finally wiped out in a naval battle off Guangzhou in 1279, the Yuan dynasty of the Mongols had declared its interest in reviving the flagging foreign trade. The Quanzhou Arabs, led by Shougeng, were given the privilege of promoting and supervising that trade. The government would reduce tariffs, extend loans and finance shipbuilding – in return, it would receive 70% of the Arabs’ profits. Quanzhou’s trade soon reached new heights, with the import of pepper from India’s Malabar coast being especially lucrative. In 1292, Marco Polo estimated that a hundred times more pepper was shipped to Quanzhou than to Alexandria.

The Mongols having destroyed the Abbasid caliphate in 1258 and set up the Il-Khanate in its place, their subjects included other Arabs and Persians as well. Large numbers were now drawn over land and sea to Yuan China by the prospect of better conditions for trade. Others were appointed as tax-collectors, administrators or even ministers, and all received preferential treatment over the Chinese under the ethnic classification of Semu. Besides tens of thousands in Quanzhou, a huge Muslim community also settled in Hangzhou and was described by Ibn Battuta. However, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians also lived in both cities; Genoese merchants and Franciscan friars came to China for the first time, and the Franciscan bishop of ‘Zaytun’ was grudgingly impressed by a climate of tolerance that made preaching safe but surprisingly unfruitful.

For thirty years, Pu Shougeng’s family administered Quanzhou in a position of great prestige and partial autonomy. By the 1320s, however, the Pu had lost their dominance to swelling numbers of newer merchants from the Il-Khanate. Trade may also have started slowing down even in the 1340s, when Ibn Battuta sailed into the harbour and reported seeing a hundred first-class ships, besides countless smaller ones. The trade route across the Isthmus of Kra seems to have fallen into disuse, while Wang Dayuan observed on his travels in the Straits of Malacca that piracy was endemic there. Epidemics broke out in Fujian in 1345-1346, and apparently spread across China; it has been suggested that this was the same bubonic plague that was soon decimating the European population. The Yuan policy of accepting only paper money in business transactions, which had once facilitated trade, now led to inflation as a less responsible government overprinted currency to support its expenses. Chinese rebellions began breaking out across the empire in the 1330s, and reached a peak in the 1350s after a catastrophic flooding of the Yellow River.

What happened in Quanzhou at this time is not related in the official Yuan dynastic history, but was reconstructed by the late Professor Zhuang Weiji of Xiamen University in 1980, based on unofficial records, including regional histories and clan genealogies. The Semu merchants, anxious to protect their lives and property, organised themselves into a militia called the Sipahi , led by two men named Sayf ud-Din and Amir ud-Din. From fighting off rebels, the Sipahi had turned by 1357 to capturing territory for themselves, marching northwards along the coast to raid Xinghua and Fuzhou. In 1362, internal rivalries led to bitter fighting within the Semu community, and ended with power in the hands of a trade official named Naguna. However, at this time a Fujian warlord named Chen Youding, nominally loyal to the Yuan, was also expanding his power base further inland. In 1366, he advanced to the coast and met the Sipahi in battle at Xinghua. Faced with a superior army, the armed merchants broke and fled. Thousands were killed, including their commanders Baipai Muhammad and Jin Ali. Chen’s forces then marched into Quanzhou, and for three days slaughtered all “westerners” they could find – including anyone with foreign-looking hair and a higher-bridged nose. By the time Ming armies defeated Chen Youding and took Fujian in 1368, most of the surviving Muslims had either escaped by sea or gone into hiding in the countryside. Even those who stayed in Quanzhou would soon see their way of life changed drastically.

[Note: Sipahi (transliterated in Chinese records as ‘yisibaxi’) is a Persian word meaning ‘soldiers’ – usually cavalrymen (in singular form it is sipasi). It later became the standard term for heavy cavalry in the Ottoman Empire, and also spread to Mogul India where it was the origin of the Anglicised term ‘sepoy’. The link between ‘sipahi’ and ‘yisibaxi’ was ‘discovered’ by me almost accidentally, when I came across the word ‘sipahi’ in a description of the Ottoman army and was struck by the similarity. Some searches on the internet finally proved my hunch to be correct. At that time, I was unaware that the link had already been suggested by “[s]ome Japanese and Chinese scholars”, as reported by Fan Ke in a 2001 article: “Maritime Muslims and Hui Identity: A South Fujian Case”, in Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol, 21, No. 2, pp. 316, 329n. So Kee Long is more specific in tracing the theory to Maejima Shinji’s two-part study “The Muslims in Ch’uan-chou at the End of the Yuan Dynasty”, in Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko, 31 & 32 (1973-74). The identification of ‘yisibaxi’ as ‘sipahi’ (or a related word, ‘ispah’) is disputed by Chinese scholars like Liao Dake, who favour alternative (but less convincing) identifications like ‘Isfahan’ (after the city in Persia) or even ‘Shahbandar’ (the Persian term for a port superintendent). The names of the Sipahi commanders, who held the rank of Wanhu (‘leader of ten thousand households’), mean ‘Sword of the Faith’ and ‘Commander of the Faith’ respectively, but there is no evidence that their actions were motivated primarily by religion, or that any violence was directed specifically against non-Muslims in Quanzhou.]

Between two world systems: Reassessing Reid’s ‘Age of Commerce’

Marco Polo had observed the resentment of the Chinese towards the “Saracens” whom the Mongols employed to govern them, and the Chinese rebels who completed the overthrow of the Yuan and established the Ming dynasty were no different. Zhu Yuanzhang placed restrictions on the practice of Islam, which were only lifted in 1407 by Zhu Di, whose closest confidants were Muslim eunuchs. To impose ethnic assimilation from above, Mongols and Semu were forbidden from marrying within their own kind. Highly-sinicised Quanzhou Arabs like the Ding of Chendai village, who had migrated from Suzhou in the late Yuan, still faced official suspicion: their patriarch was unjustly imprisoned for a year for alleged links to the banned White Lotus Buddhist sect. The descendants of the Ding and Pu are today quite indistinguishable from other Chinese, and many have forgotten their origins, having accepted assimilation completely.

Under Ming rule, the remaining Arabs withdrew from all commercial activity, because the government now moved to break the power of merchants by monopolizing overseas trade. Instead of attracting foreign traders and fostering its own merchant community, China would now seek only formal tribute missions from foreign rulers, or dispatch government fleets to purchase the desired commodities. All tribute missions would be registered at Guangzhou, except for those from Ryukyu which were required to register at Quanzhou. Thus, “Quanzhou and the Fujian ports were largely bypassed. Instead of foreign traders, these ports saw only imperial garrisons, who built new walled forts and manned coastal flotillas to arrest illegal shipping, fight off pirates…, and prevent smuggling. … [Quanzhou] never regained its former greatness as a port.” Indeed, smuggling and piracy would become characteristic of the Fujian coast during the Ming dynasty, and were significant factors in the emergence of the most prominent Fujian port of the Qing dynasty, Xiamen (Amoy).

Wang Gungwu suggests that a reference in the records of the Zheng He fleet to a Muslim merchant community on the northeast Java coast may indicate where some Arabs who left Quanzhou shifted their operations to. If this is true, these communities nonetheless ceased to maintain direct links with the Indian Ocean, and restricted themselves to the trade within Southeast Asia. Arab ships, whether from the east or the west, no longer went beyond the Straits of Malacca after the 14th century, and I would even suggest that the famous Ming voyages to the Arabian and African coasts were undertaken not so much as displays of naval might or diplomatic missions, but rather as attempts to revive the intra-Asian trade route after the collapse of the Arab network. The fleets retraced this route to Ceylon, Calicut, Hormuz, Mogadishu, and Malindi, and brought back spices, frankincense and ambergris – but they also sought to replace it by developing alternative sources closer to home.

Anthony Reid has famously identified Zheng He’s first visit to Southeast Asia as the beginning of the region’s ‘Age of Commerce’, in that it introduced Indian pepper plants to Sumatra. Pepper had, by the 1560s, become Southeast Asia’s main export to both China and Europe, and even India’s eastern coast began importing Sumatran pepper. Pasai and Malacca became bustling entrepots for Muslim merchants from the Indian Ocean, and these merchants would now include more Gujaratis than Arabs. The steady ‘Islamisation’ of insular Southeast Asia in this period is also generally credited to Indian Muslim merchants, not Arabs. But when the Portuguese sailed into the Indian Ocean after 1498, they found that neither the Gujaratis nor the Arabs had naval power to match theirs, and the route into the South China Sea soon lay open to them. The beginnings of the ‘modern world system’ conceptualized by Immanuel Wallerstein are usually traced to this power vacuum in the Indian Ocean, and the earlier expeditions of the Ming fleets into that ocean regarded as a vision of another world order that might have been.

However, Janet Abu-Lughod has theorized that Quanzhou had been one cornerstone of a ‘premodern world system’ that linked northwestern Europe to China in a trading network sustained by the Arab middlemen from the 1250s to the 1350s. This world system depended on the ability of the overland Silk Road and the Indian Ocean sea route to complement each other in a single circuit running between the Islamic and Chinese worlds. Despite the flourishing of maritime trade during the Song dynasty, the circuit was not fully-formed until the Mongol conquests brought both worlds into one empire for a century. Abu-Lughod therefore argues:

It is our hypothesis that the foundations of that system had begun to erode early in the fourteenth century, that they were precipitously weakened by the epidemic deaths in the mid- and latter-fourteenth century, and that they were finally undermined completely by the collapse of the Mongol “empire” that, although it allowed the Ming to come to power, also cut China off from its Central Asian hinterland. Thus, what is viewed in Chinese history as a restoration of a legitimate dynasty must be viewed in world system perspective as the final fragmentation of the larger circuit of thirteenth-century world trade in which China had played such an important role.

In Abu-Lughod’s view, the Mongols have been largely maligned as destroyers of civilizations. The decline of the Arab world and the Central Asian trade routes was mainly a consequence not of the Mongol conquest, but of the bubonic plague and the attacks by Timur (Tamerlane) in 1370-1402. Nor did the Mongols cause the “drastic break” in China’s progress to modernity that Western scholars have imagined. Indeed, it was the collapse of the Yuan and the decline of cosmopolitanism and international commerce under the Ming that aborted China’s advance towards the kind of society represented by Quanzhou. This decline cannot be explained simply in terms of the trade ban, or the dismantling of the Ming fleets – as Abu-Lughod suggests, those fleets were only a “last effort” to forestall an economic collapse caused by the Ming dynasty’s loss of both the Silk Road and the Arab middlemen. They were an expensive gamble, and they failed because tribute missions could never be enough to prop up an entire world system. “The result was a Chinese withdrawal that concentrated on rebuilding the agrarian base and internal production and marketing” – with that withdrawal, the world system disintegrated completely.

Wang Gungwu concurs that “there might have been something of a ‘Pax Mongolica’ for Muslim and Chinese traders in Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean”, and that from the Ming dynasty, Chinese merchants limited themselves to trading directly (and usually illegally) with the Southeast Asian ports – “It was not until the sixteenth century that the Europeans began to bring Indian Ocean commercial needs to the China coast again.” Reid’s ‘Age of Commerce’ thus saw a temporary flowering of Southeast Asian polities in the two to three centuries before the rise of a new ‘Eurocentred’ system, but one must recognise that its ‘commercial’ nature was a poorer stopgap from the perspective of international trade. It would probably be more useful to refer to 1400-1680 by a less memorable but more specific term, like ‘the Southeast Asian Pepper Boom’. That boom in fact arose from the decline of the Arab middlemen of Quanzhou, and this time the Arabs could not recover (as they had done in the past) before the Europeans arrived with their own ideas of what profit entailed - ideas that would both traumatize and transform Asia over the course of the next few centuries.

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Q: Look, its obvious you haven't read many PRC historian's work on the Qing. Or else you wouldn't call them Han chauvinists, because there is nothing in their work that demonstrate this, on the contrast, ever since the liberation of new China, PRC historians have grossly labeled Qing emperors as protectors of Chinese territory.

A: 1.What do u mean downplayed? Why PRC does not downplay Tang Dynasty?
2.Yan Cong Nian is different from most PRC historians, but he was still not fair when commenting on CiXi.
3.Yan Cong Nian bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves? Then what did Qing deserve? Who is better, Qing vs Tang dynasty? I think Qing is better than Tang in general
You did not answer this question either.
Do you know why the population of huihui in PRC keep growing while some huihui marryied to Han or other ethinics?
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Quangzhou and Guangzhou were similar, all were part of silk road on the sea. Pu's familly moved from GuangZhou to QuangZhou. Both cities suffered from ZhuYuanZhang's revolution and banning trade over the sea. Yes, QuangZhou suffered the most. However, in general, Ming Dynasty was the golden era for huihui. The Political turmoil and banning trade over the sea could not deny that. Following was what happened in QuanZhou, something similar to what SunZHongShan did later. SunZhongShan's followers committed massccre of ManZu later, for the sake of so called "revolution.

明初的排外运动

　　元朝蒙古人和色目人联合对南方汉人（南人）的统治，促进了泉州对外交流的发展，也促进了当地文化多元状态的发展，但从更广泛的地域看，同时也造成了汉人与非汉人之间深刻的民族紧张情绪。明朝建立后，明初统治者利用这种民族情绪，在全国范围内掀起排外运动。

　　泉州《清源金氏族谱》载，明兵入泉时，“凡西域人尽歼之，胡发高鼻有误杀者，闭门行诛三日。凡蒲尸皆裸体，面西方……悉具五刑而诛之，弃其肉于猪槽中，报在宋行杀逆也。”在泉州的阿拉伯人、波斯人、蒙古人及其混血的后代，或被杀灭，或被迫逃亡，其宗教崇拜场所、居住区、墓园也广遭破坏。

　　在国家压力的迫使下，阿拉伯、波斯商人及其后裔，不得已逃离泉州城区，向山区和海边的荒僻乡村移民，甚至离开泉州，逃往其它州县。

　　泉州蒲氏在元代显赫一时，入明之后，为朱元璋所不赦，其后裔或被充军边远，或四处逃散。蒲寿庚的八世孙蒲本初匿居晋江东石榕树村，明、清时却也发展为数百之众，然清末民初遭匪患、瘟疫，逃亡或死失而废村，今东石尚有30余人。蒲氏流散各地，今永春达埔、德化浔中、双翰尚有100余人，鲤城、惠安、金门也有少数。其他则分散于海内外各地。
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Q: Like it or not, strictly speaking only Han Dynasty is ruled by Han Zu. And Han extremist is common fact on the intrnet and even in the text books. For example, the PRC keep telling that 56 ethnics are the same and belong to the one warm familly. But in the text book it tell you about QuiChuDaLu, praise WenTianXiang a MinZu hero. Yes, WenTianXiang is a hero but the fact is praising WenTianXiang will hurt the feeling of some mongolians. Why not PRC praise some nutral hero like the soldoers in korea war or heros in the war against Japan's invasion?

A: Your statement is irrational, and it is you who are asserting an extremist position. According to the formal definition of ethnicity, it is based on three criteria:

1. Self-identification
2. Culture
3. Ancestry

The fact is that the rulers of the Jin, Sui, Tang, Song, Ming etc dynasties all identified themselves as Han, identified mostly with Han culture, all had Han surnames and had some Han ancestry. This fact is enough to justify the position that they are ethnic Han. It is as simple as that.

Ethnicity is not the same thing as race. It is not just determined by blood or even determined by it primarily. Ancestry is a factor but there is no such thing as "pure blood" in any ethnicity. In fact, it is possible for someone with no actual Han ancestry at all to become an ethnic Han as long as he or she adopts a Han surname and be adopted into the Han extended family/clan, as adopted children should be treated just as well as children by blood. So even though some of these rulers had some non-Han ancestry as well as Han ancestry, this is simply irrelevant in the determination of which ethnicity they belonged too.

To over-emphasise "blood" is in fact a rather racist view.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: Apr 17 2006, 11:12 AM  
     

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Q: This thread has gotten so deliciously convoluted that I couldn’t resist reading it through to figure it out.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the section 1 of the OP deduces that Zhu Yuanzhang is Hui based on certain evidence but then section 2 simply CONCLUDES that the reason for Zheng He’s voyages to find mecca. Sorry, but where is the evidence or deduction process for saying that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) ordered Zheng He to find mecca (voyaging from 1405 onwards)?
Section 3 of the OP cites a book written in 1516 that deduces from certain court practices that the Emperor is Muslim. Sorry, how does that go towards showing that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) is Hui? Section 4 of the OP cites a book written in 1973 which relies on (amongst other things) the book written in 1516, so I would have the same difficulty relying on this 1973 book
Section 5 to 7 is just name dropping, not to mention that section 7 cites a PRC scholar even though lovesue888 believes PRC has reason to “lie about the Ming’s origin”. And since I have great respect for 白寿彝, I will not stand for the way you cite his FOOTNOTE about a legend he has HEARD (父老相传，明太祖原是回回) as if HE (rather than those 父老) personally supports your deduction that Zhu Yuanzhang is a Hui.

Section 8 is even weirder because it just cites a menu.

The FAQ section of the OP actually presents some of evidence pointing to Zhu Yuanzhang not being a Hui but then tries to “explain away” them BASED on the assumption that Zhu Yuanzhang is a Hui. Sorry, but that’s just not the way to present an argument—ALL the evidence for and against Zhu Yuanzhang being a Hui should be presented upfront and then WEIGHED. E.g. how strong a piece of evidence is Zhu Yuanzhang’s menu, etc.

After replies by poster who didn’t find the OP convincing, the threads veers into discussions of the PRC’s policy on history and other people (like Sun Zhongshan), all of which doesn’t help me to understand on when/how Zhu Yuanzhang order Zheng He to find mecca!?? Wasn’t it the Ming Chengzu Emperor Zhu Di who got Zheng He to go sailing?

(Well, this isn’t the first thread like that— makes the Rome vs Han and other “what if” threads seem great cos they are so focused on the facts.)

 

A: Just answer you in short and will comment on your questions later.

1. The topic shifted to Qing Dynasty is because someone keep asking me to read the books by the historians of PRC. My post about Qing and SunZhongShan was to prove the historians in PRC simply lying about the Chinese history. This is the part of the reason. But Warhead claimed that there is no discussion here and that is really weird. I came here not for a war, but sharing my knowledge and learning something at the same time. Warhead did not answer my questions and only me post information here. I am really surprised this place have such kind of argument. Also , the questions I asked Warhead will answer some of your questions. But it seems that I have answer those questions by myself.

2. Muslim keep growing in PRC in the sa called dark time during Qing dynasty and even now in PRC. Because Muslim believe islim strongly, they will let the husband or wife to belive in islim too if the other part is han or other ethnics. That is why muslim keep growing. All those indicate if the parent is muslim ,his children will be muslim too. There are eveidence that the offsprings of ZhuYuanZhang beliave in islam, and that prove indirectly that ZhuYuanZhang is mulim too. ZhengHe's sailing to mecca in his last trip prove the offspring of ZhuYUanzhang is muslim.

3. There were also eveidence indicate that ZhuYuanZhang himself is muslim in my posts.
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Q: Your statement is irrational, and it is you who are asserting an extremist position. According to the formal definition of ethnicity, it is based on three criteria:

1. Self-identification
2. Culture
3. Ancestry

The fact is that the rulers of the Jin, Sui, Tang, Song, Ming etc dynasties all identified themselves as Han, identified mostly with Han culture, all had Han surnames and had some Han ancestry. This fact is enough to justify the position that they are ethnic Han. It is as simple as that.

Ethnicity is not the same thing as race. It is not just determined by blood or even determined by it primarily. Ancestry is a factor but there is no such thing as "pure blood" in any ethnicity. In fact, it is possible for someone with no actual Han ancestry at all to become an ethnic Han as long as he or she adopts a Han surname and be adopted into the Han extended family/clan, as adopted children should be treated just as well as children by blood. So even though some of these rulers had some non-Han ancestry as well as Han ancestry, this is simply irrelevant in the determination of which ethnicity they belonged too.

To over-emphasise "blood" is in fact a rather racist view.

A: In my post, I said strictly speaking but you are using modern term to define ethinity. We are talking about two different issues. Strictly Speaking, Sun舜 and Zhou周文王 were not "han" either, in the eyes of Xia 夏People. Broadly speaking , or using the modern criteria , they are" Han" or ZongHuaMinZu too.

About 5000 years Chinese WenMing中国的文明史, you need to have the evidence to prove the "WenMing"文明史. So far there are not enough evidence to prove China have that long "WenMing" History文明史. You need proof, not just stories. This is science not writing a novel.

周文王是不是汉人？

严格的说，不是
因为当时的人以夏朝统治的地区为正朔，所谓华夏民族，
而舜，东夷之人；周文王，西夷之人

但是
广义的说，或者用今天的标准，
他们是中华民族的，所谓汉族是不断融合的结果。

周文王，商末周族首领。姬姓，名昌。季历子。商纣时为西伯，亦称伯昌。任用太颠、散宜生等，施行裕民政策，势力日盛。为纣所忌，囚之於羑里，后献有莘氏之女、骊戎之文马等，始得获释。他曾解决虞、芮两国的争端，出兵进攻犬戎、密须、黎、邗，又击灭崇，修建都城丰邑，并扩充势力到长江、汉水、汝水流域，作灭商准备。在位50年，其晚年已取得「三分天下有其二」的局面。

武则天改国号周时，追尊周文王为南周始祖文皇帝。

夏朝（约为前2000年—约前1600年），中国史书记载的第一个朝代。史书记载夏朝有万国, 所以一般认为夏朝是一个部落联盟形式的国家（大陆马克思主义史学则认为，夏朝是一个奴隶制国家），夏朝文物(公元前1600年以前的文物)中有一定数量的青铜和玉制的礼器, 所以其文化／文明程度高於新石器晚期文化。但是由於迄今为止，在考古学上还没有找到夏朝存在的文字依据(最早的文字记载出於西周初期)，因此，其真实存在性没有得到正式确认。但是也不能否认夏朝的存在, 因为如果当时的文字书写在一些不易保存的物品上, 流传不下来也是完全有可能的, 商朝的存在也是因为甲骨和青铜器是容易保存的物品才得以证实. 史书记载「禹时五星累累如贯珠，炳炳若连璧。」经过全面计算，公元前1953年2月26日有一次很好的五星聚会，这可以作为估定夏代年代的参考。

根据史书记载，夏朝是禹的儿子启建立的国家。夏禹传子代替了以前的禅让制度，由禅让制变成王位的世袭制。夏朝共传13代，16王(一说14代、17王，主要是大禹是君主还是部落联盟首领有争议的问题)，约400年，后为商朝所灭。

商朝（约前1600年—前1046年），中国历史上继夏朝之后的一个王朝。约公元前1600年商族部落首领商汤灭夏创立，商王朝经历17代31王。历经五百余年，至前1046年1月20日被周武王所灭。

西方学者一般认为，夏朝只是中国传说中的朝代，并没有确凿的证据证明历史上夏朝的存在，因此中国的第一个朝代应该是商朝。并且按照他们所定的文明标准，中国的文明史最多只能从商朝的盘庚迁殷算起，也就是说，中国的文明史其实只有3000年，而不是中国学者所说的5000年。但是需要指出的是，在殷墟遗址於20世纪上半叶被发现之前，这些学者同样认为商朝只是一个传说中的王朝。殷墟出土的甲骨文几乎完全印证了司马迁史记中所记载的商王世系表，使得商朝的存在成为无可争议的事实，现在已经没有学者再对此持怀疑的态度了。偃师二里头文化的考古成果对夏朝的存在提供了支持性证据。在被普遍看作蛮夷之地的非中原地区，以成都、广汉为中心的、以青铜器闻名的三星堆文化，也创造了不亚於中原商朝的高度文明，距今有4000年之久。

 

Q: NO, thank you-- there is NO NEED respond to my post POINT BY POINT, just

The rest of the OP does not make sense if you don't address this point. 

N.B. I don't accept your reasoning process & resulting conclusions for Zhu Yuanzhang being Hui, so never mind the evidence and PLEASE STOP repeating the contents of your OP-- since we don't even agree on the "proper" debating/logical processes, we're just gonna have to disagree on this.

A: Please help me to understand which sentence in my post tell you that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) order Zheng He to find mecca ? Thanks.
help me to understand on when/how Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) order Zheng He to find mecca (in 1405)!?? Wasn’t it the Ming Chengzu Emperor Zhu Di who got Zheng He to go sailing?

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 QUOTE
泉州《清源金氏族谱》载，明兵入泉时，“凡西域人尽歼之，胡发高鼻有误杀者，闭门行诛三日。凡蒲尸皆裸体，面西方……悉具五刑而诛之，弃其肉于猪槽中，报在宋行杀逆也。”
This sentence is incorrect. The massacre of Arabs and Persians in Quanzhou was done by Chen Youding's army. He was an independent warlord who nominally was loyal to the Yuan and fought many battles with Zhu Yuanzhang. Shortly after he captured Quanzhou, Zhu Yuanzhang's army defeated him and conquered Fujian.

QUOTE
泉州蒲氏在元代显赫一时，入明之后，为朱元璋所不赦，其后裔或被充军边远，或四处逃散。蒲寿庚的八世孙蒲本初匿居晋江东石榕树村，明、清时却也发展为数百之众，然清末民初遭匪患、瘟疫，逃亡或死失而废村，今东石尚有30余人。

But one of Pu Shougeng's descendants, Pu Heri, was actually a member of Zheng He's crew. So the discrimination against the Pu family did not last that long.

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 "The Ming were secretly Muslim, but those mean ol' scholars are covering it up"
This is like one of those gnostic "Jesus secretly worshipped the sacred feminine" claims.
As Dan Brown said, "Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory".

This guy is supposed to look particularly "foreign"?

QUOTE
ZhengHe's sailing to mecca in his last trip prove the offspring of ZhuYUanzhang is muslim
Erm, Zheng He himself was a Muslim (and considering how he prayed to and built a temple for the Celestial Spouse, not a very observant one). It is hardly surprising that he would have wanted to go to Mecca. How would that make the Ming imperial family Muslim?

QUOTE
He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim.

He sent Zheng He a lot of places. You're reading too much into it.

QUOTE
All his sailing routes is about muslim.
First off, Kozhikode (Calicut) , Sri Lanka and Champa were part of his itinerary several times each, and they were not Muslim kingdoms. So the claim that "all his sailing routes is about muslim" is a lot of codswallop. Also, Muslims had taken over most of coastal and island Southern Asia by then, as well as a lot of the maritime activity. If he didn't run into them a lot, I'd think he was avoiding them.

QUOTE
What mattes is how ZhuYuanZhang bury his parents with white colth, and that is the custom of Muslim.

White is a traditonal funerary color in Chinese culture.

QUOTE
Zhu wrote a one hundred word of praise to Islam, this proved him a muslim.

The KangXi emperor and Tang Taizong praised and patronized Christianity, and Taizong even gave Christians land for a church in the capital (ask somechineseperson to elaborate, he's better at this). Shall we speak of "secretly Christian" emperors of China too? For that matter, some rulers of the Emirates have donated land for churches many times. Are they Christians now? And don't forget what I mentioned earlier about Zheng He and the Celestial Spouse.

Oh, and I bet that the Temple/Altar of Heaven (TianTan), the largest temple/altar complex in all China, were built and worshipped in by the Ming so that no one would suspect that they were "secretly Muslim", right? Or maybe it was meant to have served as a mosque in disguise until those mean ol' infidels appropriated it for their Jahiliyyic rituals, right? 

This post has been edited by DaMo: Apr 24 2006, 10:17 PM

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Please help me to understand which sentence in my post tell you that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) order Zheng He to find mecca ? Thanks.

Err, my mistake then-- so if not Zhu Yuan-zhang, who was the Muslim Emperor of Ming China that you claimed to have ordered Zhang He to make his voyages (to mecca)? I probably got confused because your whole OP seemed to be about Zhu Yuan-zhang being Muslim-- and as you've put it in the OP:

QUOTE
The truth is that the emperor of MIng was Muslim himself. He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim.

Plenty of eunuchs in the palaces of the Caliphs and Sultans, watching over their harems.

It is a very very old institution.

What do the muslim think about eunuch?
I thought they forbide gay or change of sex ?

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 http://members.tripod.com/worldupdates/isl...heworld/id3.htm

这是3500万穆斯林在中国的数字来源
网站是：世界上的穆斯林---中国篇
此文介绍伊斯兰教传入中国的历史
明朝是穆斯林的黄金时代
清朝对穆斯林有压迫，但我认为是谎言，是穆斯林内部派别之争，导致穆斯林屠杀
500万以上的汉族人，之后，清朝镇压，再加上受害汉族的报复行动，才导致穆斯林
在清朝受“迫害”的，文章把因果倒置，实在是丑化清朝。

Islam in China

By
Yusuf Abdul Rahman

[The Ancient Record of the Tang Dynasty describes a landmark visit to China by Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (ra), one of the companions of Prophet Muhammad (s) in 650 C.E. This event is considered to be the birth of Islam in China. The Chinese emperor Yung-Wei respected the teachings of Islam and considered it to be compatible with the teachings of Confucius. To show his admiration for Islam, the emperor approved the establishment of China's first mosque at Ch'ang-an. That mosque still stands today after fourteen centuries.

Muslims virtually dominated the import/export business in China during Sung Dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). The office of Director General of Shipping was consistently held by a Muslim during this period. During the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 CE), a period considered to be the golden age of Islam in China, Muslims fully integrated into Han society by adopting their name and some customs while retaining their Islamic mode of dress and dietary restrictions.

Anti-Muslim sentiments took root in China during the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644 - 1911 CE), which was established by Manchus who were a minority in China. Muslims in China number more than 35 million, according to unofficial counts. They represent ten distinct ethnic groups. The largest are the Chinese Hui, who comprise over half of China's Muslim population. The largest of Turkic groups are the Uygurs who are most populous in the province of Xinjiang, where they were once an overwhelming majority.]

Although it may come as some surprise, Islam has survived in China for over 1300 [1400] years. It has done so despite such upheavals as the Cultural Revolution as well as regimes hostile to it.
Even though there are only sparse records of the event in Arab history, a brief one in Chinese history, The Ancient Record of the Tang Dynasty describes a landmark visit to China by an emissary from Arabia in the seventh century. Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (ra), one of the companions of Prophet [Muhammad (s)], led the delegation [in 650 C.E.], which brought gifts as well as the belief system of Islam to China. According to the traditions of Chinese Muslims, this event is considered to be the birth of Islam in China.

Although the emperor of the time, Yung-Wei, found Islam to be a bit too restrictive for his taste, he respected its teachings and considered it to be compatible with the teachings of Confucius. For this reason, he gave Saad complete freedom to propagate the faith among his people. To show his admiration for Islam, the emperor ordered the establishment of China's first mosque at Ch'ang-an. The mosque still stands today, after thirteen [fourteen] centuries.

As time passed, relations between the Chinese and the Muslim heartland continued to improve. Many Muslim businessmen, visitors, and traders began to come to China for commercial and religious reasons. [Arabs had already established trade in the area before Prophet Muhammad (s).] The Umayyads and Abbasids sent six delegations to China, all of which were warmly received by the Chinese.

The Muslims who immigrated to China eventually began to have a great economic impact and influence on the country. They virtually dominated the import/export business by the time of the Sung Dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). Indeed, the office of Director General of Shipping was consistently held by a Muslim during this period.

In spite of the economic successes the Muslims enjoyed during these and later times, they were recognized as being fair, law-abiding, and self-disciplined. Thus, there is no record of appreciable anti-Muslim sentiment on the part of the Han (Chinese) people.

By the beginning of the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 CE) Islam had been nourishing in China for 700 years. Up to this time, the Muslims had maintained a separate, alien status which had its own customs, language, and traditions and was never totally integrated with the Han people. Under the Ming Dynasty, generally considered to be the golden age of Islam in China, Muslims gradually became fully integrated into Han society.

An interesting example of this synthesis by Chinese Muslims was the process by which their names changed. Many Muslims who married Han women simply took on the name of the wife. Others took the Chinese surnames of Mo, Mai, and Mu - names adopted by Muslims who had the names Muhammad, Mustafa, and Masoud. Still others who could find no Chinese surname similar to their own adopted the Chinese character that most closely resembled their name - Ha for Hasan, Hu for Hussein, or Sai for Said, and so on.

In addition to names, Muslim customs of dress and food also underwent a synthesis with Chinese culture. The Islamic mode of dress and dietary restrictions were consistently maintained, however, and not compromised. In time, the Muslims began to speak Han dialects and to read in Chinese. Well into the Ming era, the Muslims could not be distinguished from other Chinese other than by their unique religious customs. For this reason, once again, there was little friction between Muslim and non-Muslim Chinese.

The rise of the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644 - 1911 CE), though, changed this. The Ch'ing were Manchu (not Han) and were a minority in China. They employed tactics of divide-and-conquer to keep the Muslims, Han, Tibetans, and Mongolians in struggles against one another. In particular, they were responsible for inciting anti-Muslim sentiment throughout China, and used Han soldiers to suppress the Muslim regions of the country.

When the Manchu Dynasty fell in 1911, the Republic of China was established by Sun Yat Sen, who immediately proclaimed that the country belonged equally to the Han, Hui (Muslim), Man (Manchu), Meng (Mongol), and the Tsang (Tibetan) peoples. His policies led to some improvement in relations among these groups.

After Mao Zedong's revolution in 1948 and the beginning of communist rule in China, the Muslims, as well as other ethnic minorities found themselves once again oppressed. They actively struggled against communists before and after the revolution. In fact, in 1953, the Muslims revolted twice in an effort to establish an independent Islamic state [in regions where Muslims were an overwhelming majority]. These revolts were brutally suppressed by Chinese military force followed by the liberal use of anti-Muslim propaganda.

Today, the Muslims of China number some 20 million, according to unofficial counts. The government census of 1982, however, put the number much lower, at 15 million. These Muslims represent ten distinct ethnic groups. The largest are the Chinese Hui, who comprise over half of China's Muslim population and are scattered throughout all of China. There is also a high concentration of Hui in the province of Ningsha in the north.

After the Hui, the remainder of the Muslim population belong to Turkic language groups and are racially Turks (except for the Mongol Salars and Aryan Tajiks). The Turkic group is further divided between the Uygurs, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Kirgiz, Tatars and Dongshiang. Nearly all of the Turkic Muslims are found in the western provinces of Kansu and Xinjiang. The largest of these Muslim groups are the Uygurs.

The Uygurs are most populous in the province of Xinjiang, where they make up some 60% of the total population. This relatively small percentage is due to the massive influx of non-Muslim Chinese into the province in recent times, a situation that has brought problems of assimilation and raised concerns about the de-Islamization of one of China's predominantly Muslim regions. [Muslims in Central Asia, under the USSR, were subjected to a similar population management, Russification of Central Asia;Muslims, and the Uygur in particular, suffered tremendously under the regime of Mao Zedong and his "Cultural Revolution." During the communist reign of terror, there was a violent campaign to eradicate all traces of Islam and of the ethnic identity of all non-Chinese. The Uygur language, which had for centuries used Arabic script, was forced to adopt the Latin alphabet. The Uygurs, as with most believing Muslims, were subjected to forced labor in the some 30,000 communes set up in the predominantly Muslim provinces. The imams and akhunds were singled out for humiliating punishments and tortures....[and were forced to] tend to pig farms, which were sometimes kept in government-closed mosques.

Under the pretext of unification of national education, Islamic schools were closed and their students transferred to other schools which taught only Marxism and Maoism. Other outrages included the closing of over 29,000 mosques, the widespread torture of imams, and executions of over 360,000 Muslims.

Since the death of Mao and the end of his hard-line Marxist outlook nearly fifteen years ago, the communist government has greatly liberalized its policies toward Islam and Muslims. And despite the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, Islam has continued to thrive in China.
Today the campaign for assimilation started during the Cultural Revolution has slowed somewhat and the Turkic Muslims have greater freedom to express their cultural identity. The government has, for instance, allowed the reinstatement of the Arabic alphabet for use with the Uygur language. There is, however, continued discrimination against the Turkic Muslims by the immigrant Chinese (favored by the government) who have settled in the far western province of Xinjiang. This immigration has posed a problem as Han Chinese are migrating to Muslim areas at the rate of 200,000 a year. In many places where Muslims once were a majority, they are now a minority.

Since religious freedom was declared in 1978, the Chinese Muslims have not wasted time in expressing their convictions. There are now some 28,000 mosques in the entire People's Republic of China, with 12,000 in the province of Xinjiang. In addition, there is a large number of imams available to lead the Muslim community (in Xinjiang alone there are over 2,800).
There has been an increased upsurge in Islamic expression in China, and many nationwide Islamic associations have been organized to coordinate inter-ethnic activities among Muslims. Islamic literature can be found quite easily and there are currently some eight different translations of the Qur'an in the Chinese language as well as translations in Uygur and the other Turkic languages. The Muslims of China have also been given almost unrestricted allowance to make the Hajj to Mecca . In 1986 there were some 2,300 Chinese Muslims at Hajj. (Compared to the 30 Soviet Muslims allowed to make the same pilgrimage, this number seems quite generous, considering that the Soviet Muslim

population outnumbers China's by nearly four times).

China's Muslims have also been active in the country's internal politics. As always, the Muslims have refused to be silenced. Several large demonstrations have been staged by Muslims to protest intrusions on Muslim life. Last year, for instance, Muslims staged a massive protest rally in Beijing to demand the removal of anti-Islamic literature from China's bookstores. The Turkic [group] Muslims have also held demonstrations for a greater voice in the running of their own affairs and against the continued large-scale immigration of non-Muslims into their provinces. In the news this spring are more reports of demonstrations and struggles by Chinese Muslims to regain their rights. Insha'Allah they will be successful.

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This post explained the so called musilim depressing during Qing Dynasty. How strong the muslim are after Ming Dynasty(golden age for muslim)

转一个帖子，也是说西北回民大起义的，作者不详，数字也许有出入，仅供参考。这里没有什么民族争端问题，只是想说明回族在清朝的强盛，说明明朝时候回族得到了怎样的发展。这次争端有俄国人的影子，正如西藏有英国人的影子一样。为了七分中国，瓜分中国。这里不得不赞扬一下慈禧支持左忠堂收复新疆的伟大，当时的清朝可是内外交困啊，这次战争，李鸿章是反对的，，，
　　------
　　回民起义是在驻陕清军到南方镇压太平天国，回民借防务空虚进行对汉民进行的种族灭绝大屠杀。起义第一仗不是杀清军，而是血洗汉民村庄八女井，将全村一万余口不分男女老幼集体屠杀。回民起义不是针对清军、针对清政府，说他反清是为掩盖回民起义大屠杀的事实，美化回民起义。回民当中３０００人找不出一个识字的，缺少文化教养，根本不懂什么是反封建。后人说回民起义是反封建，纯粹是为了美化回民起义，用阶级斗争历史观给回民起义扣的红冒子。 　　
　　　　　陕西回民领袖白彦虎带领的陕西回民杀人最疯狂。此人起义时只有２２岁，大字不识一个，没有一点教养，后以杀人多而成为领袖。在宁夏，他掘了皇家坟墓。在其它回民起义领袖投降得以安置后，他自知罪孽深重，面对不可能的胜利，不顾回民的死活胁迫他们继续死拚。他杀了嫂子，以威胁不愿跟他再死拚的人。最后他投靠国外分裂势力，分裂中国。就这么一个人，现在有人谓他为民族英雄。
　　
　　可叹的是，很多人包括很多历史学家，只让人知道清朝镇压回民起义,却不告诉你,回民当时做了什么。以致于，今天很多人将左宗堂当成民族罪人，白彦虎当作民族英雄。张承志写书误导回民，歌颂屠杀，宣扬圣战，而很多人把他的书看成是有血性的小说。把杀人的刀当作艺术品去欣赏。 可悲啊，中国，你为何让你的后人视大屠杀为起义，将恶魔当亲人，视英雄为罪人，将屠刀当玩具啊。
　　
　　回民起义对汉族的大屠杀，开始于同治元年（１８６２年）的陕西，在陕西杀了约５００万人。１８６３年，陕西回民在被清军镇压退到甘肃后，对甘肃汉人进行疯狂大屠杀。虽然也有甘肃回民参加，但最残暴的是陕西回民，杀人最狠。据《中国人口史》一书的统计，回民起义前咸丰十一年（１８６１年）甘肃人口１９４５．９万人，战后光绪六年（１８８０年）人口仅存４９５．５万人，人口损失１４５
　　５．５万人，损失比例为７４．５％。在甘肃，回民一次杀１０万以上汉人的大屠杀有很多次，许多县的汉人被杀光。回民起义杀掉陕甘两省的总人口大约２０００万人．这是世界近代史上最残暴的种族灭绝大屠杀。这次大屠杀比希特勒屠杀犹太人手段更残酷。不分男女老幼，全部用刀砍死，用火烧死，进行种族灭绝大屠杀。
　　不是为谋财，不是为谋地，单纯为杀人而杀人。
　　以下是甘肃部分县大屠杀的情况。
　　
　　据镇原县志：”四乡堡寨攻陷无遗，而县城独全，盖四乡之人逃出虎口者，生后入城避难。是月初九日……（回民军入城）……，全城糜烂，死者不知其数。”据《中国人口史》，回民屠城前全县人口２６．９万，战争损失２３．４万，损失比例为８７％．
　　
　　据《中国人口史》，泾州四县咸丰十一年（１８６１年）有人口９２．８万，战争中人口死亡８２．２万，损失８８．６％．
　　
　　平凉。据宣统《甘肃新通志》卷４７，同治二年（１８６３年）八月，回民军队”陷平凉城府官……员死节者百余，士民死者十数万。”据《中国人口史》一书推算，同治年间平凉府（包括华亭，隆德，平远，海城，固原）人口损失２４９．１万，占战前人口的８８．６％。一次被杀十万人以上的例子很多．
　　
　　在华亭县，据记载，“同治二年十一月，陕回入境，焚杀极惨。初土回叛变，尚爱乡土，不甚残毒。及陕回入境，无所顾惜，焚杀惨于土回十倍。华亭从此丘墟。“”乡镇民屋焚杀殆尽，遗民数百悉逃莲花台。“平回后招安遗民，归城者仅七十余人，男女老幼死亡数万。据《中国人口史》，华亭县咸丰十一年（１８６１年）人口约１７．１万，战争中人口损失约达９４％．也即基本上被杀完了．
　　
　　隆德县。据载：”同治四年县破城，从此官逃庄浪，城空无主者五年．人民杀毙饿死十有八九，老弱逃尽，全县无二三十人家。全县村村焦土，十室九空．”人口死亡比例高达９０％．而今这个县的人口，基本上均是战后移民．
　　
　　固原县。回民军队与清军争夺的重点。同治二年一份奏报称，固原突被回军攻破，”民殆尽”宣统《甘肃新通志》卷４７称：”固原回叛……城内官民男妇共死者二十余万人。”
　　
　　据中国人口史，庆阳府战争中损失１２８．７万，占战前人口的９１．３％．汉民基本被杀光．
　　
　　宁夏府。据宣统《甘肃新通志》卷４７，同治二年，回民军队”陷宁夏府城，汉民十余万被屠殆尽”。同年马化隆又陷灵州，”城中民人死者二万余”。整个宁夏府人口损失多达１５０万，战后仅存１０多万．当时有一篇祭文有如下描述：“……同时赴义，数十万人，尽罹锋镝，天降鞠凶……“
　　
　　花马池（现为宁夏盐池），原有１０万人，战后只留下５９４７人．人口损失９４．１％．汉人基本上被杀完。
　　
　　陕回入甘经渭源、狄道至河州，屠杀甚惨。由于当时农村杀得很惨，能逃的则涌入县城，借城墙保命。然而城破之后，则被血洗。如渭源城破后，“屠毒生灵以数万计，满城官员皆死之。“另一记载：“残杀一日，辄死人民数万，血流成渠，尸积如山，伤心惨目。”渭源人口损失９０％，人民基本被杀光。十年后才设官府，招民种田，原有住户只余十余家。
　　狄道。宣统甘肃新通志卷４７记载，同治二年八月，回民陷狄道州城，居民十余万被屠。
　　靖远。同治五年，“陕回陷靖远县城，陕回结靖远回为内应，攻陷其城，靖民逃出者十之一二。《甘宁青史略》正编卷２１则称，靖远破，“汉人死者男妇约十余万”。
　　
　　当代回族作家张承志在其书《心灵史》中记录了一首靖远流传的儿歌：
　　　同治五年三月间，杀气弥漫天。
　　　　　十余万人一朝尽，问谁不心酸。
　　　　　桃含愁兮柳带烟，万里黄流寒。
　　　　　阖邑子弟泪潸潸，染成红杜鹃。
　　　　　清歌一曲信史传，千秋寿名山。
　　　碧血洒地白骨撑天，哭声达乌兰。
　　但他认为：“初闻此曲时，我吃惊的是：与我们通常认为的大汉族主义压迫少数民族这一认识针锋相对，靖远汉族知识分子认为，是回民的民族主义和国家对回族的优厚政策，导致了回乱时期苦难深重的靖远汉族知识分子受挫。这是极其罕见的错误认识。我为这种认识感到震惊的原因，并非在我对它的不义的反感，而在我清晰地触碰到的这种──人的隔阂。靖远县是否发生过同治五年三月回民屠杀十余万汉
　　民的惨案，我不知道。但是我相信回民一定有过对汉民的仇杀。人对人是残酷的。
　　乱世从来释放残忍。民族仇杀是历史的一种真实。同治回民起义中，屠杀汉族无辜的现象在陕西回民军中尤为严重──报应是后来陕西籍政府要员对回族的成见。继承刽子手湘军遗风的一些湖南人，以及保持对回乱惧恨的一些陕西人，将是这个世界上最难理解回回民族的人。”
　　这个学历史、搞考古的研究生水平的作家，对于“十余万人一朝尽”没有兴趣进行调查落实，一句“不知道”就说过去了。而且凭直觉给了一个“极罕见的错误认识”的主观判断。他只对回民受难的历史有兴趣，对汉民“十余万人一朝尽”的历史没有感情。然后就感叹陕西人对回族有成见，是最难理解回回民族的。陕西临潼两年时间被杀三十万，全县无一村一户幸免。这样的历史张承志也是没有心情去调查的。在他的书中，只记述回民被镇压的悲壮的历史，而不见回民对汉民疯狂屠杀的历史。这样做不知是出于无知，还是为了其它。
　　知识分子应当追求真善美，以体恤生命为良知，热爱和平，心存大同。无论你是写历史的还是写文学作品的，歌颂屠杀、赞美屠杀，是没有人性的，是不为人类所齿的。
　　
　　以下是陕西各县的杀人数字：整体而言，回民起义后，渭河两岸各县人口减少６０％，
　　
　　损失最惨的是临潼县，人基本被杀完。
　　临潼县。据复旦大学史地所路伟东研究，临潼县1861年人口是26万。临潼县志载, “1862--1869七年，临潼县死亡人口30余万.。渭河南北烧杀之灾无一村一人而幸免.。”也就是说，不仅杀光了原来的人口，也杀光了这七年新生的孩子。《中国人口史》一书，列出了很多县的死亡情况，唯独对死亡最惨的临潼县没有提说。
　　泾阳县。据《中国人口史》一书，战前一年的１８６１年人口１７，７万，战后６。７万，战争中损失１１万。
　　兴平县。战前１８６１年１８。４万，战争三年人口损失７。９万。
　　户县。战前１６。２万，战争中人口损失比例超过三分之二。高陵县战前８万，损
　　失４。８万。
　　富平县，战前３１。８万，损失２０。３万。　
　　三原县，咸丰十一年（１８６１）三原县人口２１。６万人，损失１２。３万。据三原县志记载，回民起义两年间（１８６２─１８６３），“县旧隶五百余村俱残破，仅存东里、蔡王二堡”。　
　　高陵县。回民起义前的１８６１年高陵县人口８万人。高陵县志记载，“同治三年（１８６４），县内人口锐减至３２１９２人。”损失４。８万。
　　大荔县（旧制），战前２２。４万，三年后仅余７２６７９人。损失６７％。
　　合阳县，战前２９。９万，战后余１４。６万，损失５７％。
　　澄城县，战前２０。６万，损失６０％。
　　蒲城县，战前３２万，损失６４％。
　　华州（现华县），战前１７。８万，战后不到９万。
　　
　　是多隆阿将军，镇压了回民叛乱，救了陕西人。是左宗堂左大人带领湘军平息了回民叛乱，救了整个西北地区的人民，包括回民。各位看官，如你是陕西人，请向多将军表示敬意，不然我们的祖先早被杀光了。如你是西北人，请向左大人表示敬意。
　　我们无法再向古人说什么，当你与湖南人打交道时，一定要对他们好点。因为是湘军不畏生死，用生命拯救西北人民，对他们的后人好一点。
　　
　　以上回民起义死亡人数的资料均有据可查，主要是《中国人口史》（第五卷，清史部分）。另外，《同治年间陕西回民起义调查》一书，记录了很多大屠杀的过程。
　　《甘肃新通志》也是一部很有价值的书。
　　
　　转一些网友对这段历史的评论：
　　
　　陕西回民趁清朝军队到南方镇压太平军,准备屠杀汉人.目的是将陕西的汉人杀光.起义前,他们秘请铁匠打刀,刀打好后将铁匠杀掉,以防泄秘.为准备杀人的竹杆,将街上的竹竿买光了.大荔县有一个汉民大村八女井,回民起义第一次杀人就是将此村的汉人全部杀光,一早上杀了一万多人.紧接着,挨村杀,不分男女和老幼,很快大荔,渭南,华县的农村被回民杀光.杀完了农村,再进攻县城.一些县城的老百姓进行了顽强抵抗.在临潼县,一个有文化的回民教师在接到第二天的杀人传贴后,紧急报告县长.县城紧急关门,才保住了一些人.而渭河两岸的汉民村庄,全部被杀.全县被杀30万人,不留一人.回民组织了30万人的军队,在关中平原杀人.几个月时间杀了五百万人.80%的汉人被杀,只有一些县城保住了少量人口,向北逃的人都被回民杀了,少量逃进骊山里
　　的人,因回民不敢进山杀人而留了下来.
　　清朝将军胜保,看回民人多势众,不敢出城迎战.任由回民屠杀.后被慈禧太后赐死.湘军将领多隆阿,作战勇敢,将回民赶出陕西,救了陕西人的命.当年,关中到处都有多将军的忠义祠,现在他则成了罪人.那个向临潼知县通报情况的回民老师,通报情况后,知道回民不会饶他,杀了自己的老母和妻子儿女,然后自杀.当年临潼人为他修了祠堂.但
　　现在已没有人知道,这个勇救汉人的回民.
　　陕西回民1862年起义,又不断动员甘肃回民起义.甘肃回民1863年开始起义,甘肃回民杀汉人乡邻难以下手,从陕西逃过来的回民则走一路杀一路.甘肃汉民被杀了600万.甘肃全省人口减少70%,中部地区的汉民几乎全部被杀. 这就是回民起义.回民为了在黄河以西地区建立一个纯粹的回民国家,借着清朝后期的衰弱,对中华民族发祥地上的汉人进行种族灭绝大屠杀,一年时间杀了1100多万汉人.
　　陕西回民的首领之一白彦虎杀人最凶,杀遍陕西杀甘肃,最后投靠外国势力分裂中国.一些历史学家以这个人敢造反,誉此人为民族英雄.现在还有人准备给这个人过节日.而平息了回民起义的左宗堂,现在则成为罪人. 回民起义是典型的种族灭绝大屠杀,比希特勒屠杀犹太人要残忍得多.比南京大屠杀严重得多.可惜的是,没有人愿意告诉你这悲壮的历史.反而要把它说成是义举.
　　
　　再转网友评论：
　　
　　之所以有这么大的损失，是因为汉人的传统是不私藏兵器，所以遇到问题没武器可用，而当时的回族一般都有，第二点是回族有骑兵，汉人没有，骑兵对步兵，胜负是明摆的，第三点是回族聚集之后（估计人数最少有几十万），首先不是攻击城市，而是以上百倍的兵力集中扫荡各个孤立的村庄，村庄人口少，所以被整村整村灭绝，而中国当时农村的特点是农村人口占全省人口的90%，
　　
　　另外一点是屠杀来得突然，各个农村来不及组织联合以及防御，很短的时间内，陕西就被杀了几百万农村人口，后来的城市由于孤立，在局部战场而言，回族武装在人数上反而占压倒性多数
　　
　　你分析得真好，这么好的对历史的分析太少了。如果中国再乱，相同的屠杀是否会出现？如果避免？如果乘机把他们杀光？大家研究这个，很有意义。他们不是起义，是暴乱，是杀人魔王，是种族屠杀。我们要提倡民族尚武知兵，比如军训。

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Eunuchs got nothing to do with being homosexuals or changing of sex.

Are you sure ?
because we have no account of it..
just that Zheng He was muslim and a eunuch.
how other muslim look at an eunuch since they would kill gay

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 Being a eunuch does not necessarily mean one is gay, and definitely does not by itself make one transsexual.

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"If an archeologist calls something a finial, he usually he has no idea what it is"
"We Vandals get blamed for stuff that was actually done by some errant Lombard or Visigoth"
"Nationalism is much about forgetting as it is about remembering"
 
 Been eunuch just mean you are nonsexual, like a holy priest, so why is it wrong?  
    

 

 Ming Dynasty founder and royal house definitely had " muslim connections " either blood-tie or religious practice as it has always been re-circulated like " fried cold rice ",that how we Cantonese speakers simply put it.

Been eunuch just mean you are nonsexual, like a holy priest, so why is it wrong?

I did not say it was wrong, I was asking how the muslim look at this because there was no account that how they respond if they know that person is an eunuch? I don't know there is any Arab Eunuch ?

 

I was asking how the muslim look at this because there was no account that how they respond if they know that person is an eunuch? I don't know there is any Arab Eunuch ?

As I mentioned, the caliphs, sultans and emirs in the historical Muslim states, and even the rulers in the Middle-East prior to Islamisation, had hordes of women in their harem. Those women were usually attended by male attendants who were eunuchs.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch for some eunuchs in ancient times.

I don't think the Muslims look at a eunuch in any particularly different way from other cultures with the eunuch institution look at them.  
     
 

As I mentioned, the caliphs, sultans and emirs in the historical Muslim states, and even the rulers in the Middle-East prior to Islamisation, had hordes of women in their harem. Those women were usually attended by male attendants who were eunuchs.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch for some eunuchs in ancient times.

I don't think the Muslims look at a eunuch in any particularly different way from other cultures with the eunuch institution look at them.

WOWWWWWWWW...
All this while I only heard of Chinese Eunuch, but it seem that it started in Middle East and it's all over the world.
Greek, Roman, Africa, India, Middle East, Vietnam....
Eunuch were waiters in muslim world...
    

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WOWWWWWWWW...
All this while I only heard of Chinese Eunuch, but it seem that it started in Middle East and it's all over the world.
Greek, Roman, Africa, India, Middle East, Vietnam....
Eunuch were waiters in muslim world...
   

lol zaman sebelum Islam (Zaman Jahiliyah) 
    
 
Prince of the So...
Prince of the South
 

 

 All this while I only heard of Chinese Eunuch, but it seem that it started in Middle East and it's all over the world.
Greek, Roman, Africa, India, Middle East, Vietnam....

The Ottoman empire of the Turks had many powerful eunuchs of which some held the title of Grand Vizier. They were of a plethora of ethnicities from Egyptians, Arabs, Turks, Africans, Slavs....

What do you mean by "the Ming Dynasty is the golden age of Islam in China"?. I believe if that's the case and if the Ming emperors were Muslims, the whole of China would have been converted to Islam. That would really mean "Golden Age" wouldn't it? Why would the Ming secretly practised Islam while they rule China? What for? I reckoned that would be the only Muslim rulers to do that? By this rational, and we are not even into facts yet, the possibility of Ming emperors being Muslims are rather tentative. Let's see,

We know Muslims are fervent believers, and if a nation's ruler is Muslim, they would definitely declare the country an Islamic State. We have many modern Islamic countries, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia, closer to homes, Arabs countries even with a signiificant Christian minority Syria, Lebanon, Egypt for example. If you look back into history, with the growth of Islam, Muslims conquerors swept all before them, first by conquest and then by converting the people to Islam, Abbasid Caliphate, Omayyad Caliphate, Muslim Spain, and even the conversion of Malay kingdoms like Malacca Sultanate started from the royal family first.

Now, if the Ming rulers were Muslims, why were they so secretive? Because Muslims are known to convert their people, so it would highly improbable that not even one Ming emperor tried to do that? I reckon this is a major anomaly. Wouldn't that be unthinkable??? Even great civilisations like Egypt, Persia and India are islamicised to a certain or greater extent when the rulers were Muslims but why not Ming China?? How about the Goldern Horde? To say they were secretive so that the Chinese people would not rebel against their Muslim rulers is a weak argument, as I have said before, Islam rulers are fervent and conversion would be very widespread. Even if you were not forced to convert, you would find that by converting you would be getting preferential treatment must be a great reason to do so. for eg, Muslims Slavs in the Ottoman empire i.e. Bosnians.

And if Ming emperors were Muslims, why then not the Islamic states of Southeast Asian didn't record it so? We would probably learn that the Malacca Sultanate, contemporary to the Ming, should have records about their muslim brethern in great detail if both rulers were Muslims. I find it very strange in fact that these islamic states had no such records, especially these so called smaller nations would be "protected" by their bigger Muslim brother, China.

The growth of Buddhism in China were of royal patronage, I would be very surprised if the Ming emperors were Muslims, Islam didn't grow into a state religion. If the Chinese people would have rebelled against a Muslim ruler, they would had done so too to a Buddhist ruler of a China where Buddhism was hitherto unheard of and foreign.

So again I question the statement - "the golden age of Islam is during the Ming Dynasty". Simple ridiculous considering the rulers were secretly Muslims and covertly encouraging the religion to grow with indirect and
secret manipulation. If that is the case, I think the term "Golden Age" is thus used inapropriately.  
     
 

 

 Not to mention that the most massive monument of imperial dedication to traditional Chinese religion, the Temple of Heaven, was built by the Ming. While Hindu temples in India were being razed and/or mosque-fied by Muslim conquerors.

--------------------

lol zaman sebelum Islam (Zaman Jahiliyah)

What do you mean by "lol zaman sebelum Islam (Zaman Jahiliyah)". As far as I know, there are eunuch in muslim kingdom, such as Ottoman Empire.  
     


Anyway, wonder how does the Muslim think of Eunuch ?

Well, I don't understand... Why did it can be a problem in muslim world. Eunuch is common thing in muslim world. So, that's not a big deal.

Because as far as I know, Muslim don't allow Gay or change of sex and the penalty is DEATH!!

Well, Islam, like many others religion, doesn't allow homosexuality. But it doesn't mean muslim have to kill the homosexual people. There are no massacre against homosexual people in Islam history. In several muslim countries, homosex are exist, and they don't have to be killed because of their sexual orientation.

The change of sex clearly another thing. People change their sex has nothing to do with their sexual orientation (Homosexual or Heterosexual), but because they didn't feel fit in their bodies. So their mind not suitable with their bodies. We call them transsexual. In Islam, transsexual was known, of course there are some limitation. I meant, Islam didn't hate people like them. Of course the "acceptable transsexual" in Islam world completely different with the western concept, for example they have to keep their behaviour.
In several muslim countries, change sex are allow. Even in very strickly muslim country like Iran.

How about Eunuch ?? Any idea ?

Eunuch? Eunuch wasn't homosexual nor transsexual. Beside many eunuch has been eunuch not by their own willing. Zheng He, for example, captured by Zhu Di's troops in Yunnan while the troops swept the remaining of Mongol resistance.

Both his grandfather and father were known as hajji, meaning that they had made the pilgrimage to Mecca, a journey that Zheng also later completed

Hajj is pilgrimate to Mecca. In the past the journey was very expensive and dangerous trip. So there very few people have chance to go to Mecca. Ma He's family must be very rich people there. If they're really a hajj, I think they go by land, not by sea.

Zheng He's voyage wasn't a personal voyage. So I doubt that it has something to do with Mecca. As far as I know Zheng He passed away before reach Mecca, so he never completed that pilgrimate (in his 7th Voyage). Of course there are another version tells he die in China.

I believe if that's the case and if the Ming emperors were Muslims, the whole of China would have been converted to Islam. That would really mean "Golden Age" wouldn't it? Why would the Ming secretly practised Islam while they rule China? What for? I reckoned that would be the only Muslim rulers to do that? By this rational, and we are not even into facts yet, the possibility of Ming emperors being Muslims are rather tentative.

So again I question the statement - "the golden age of Islam is during the Ming Dynasty". Simple ridiculous considering the rulers were secretly Muslims and covertly encouraging the religion to grow with indirect and
secret manipulation. If that is the case, I think the term "Golden Age" is thus used inapropriately.

I agree with you. I just wanna adding some hypothesis about the possibility of Ming Emperors being muslims. Well, both sides are extrem. I meant, they insist to be right. one side believed the Ming emperors are muslims, the other side didn't believe at all. Maybe the first side not entirely wrong, and the second side not completely right. Personaly I doubt that the Ming emperors were muslims, but maybe some of them were muslims.

I said "maybe" not "mustbe". So maybe Zhu Yuanzhang, Zhu Yunwen, and Zhu Di were muslims. After that, because of situation or something, Zhu Gaochi, Zhu Zhanji, etc no longer being muslims, completely absorbed in Han culture and custom. This kind of circumtances are common. Minority ruler tend to absorbed by the majority. Li Yuan, Li Shimin (Tang Dynasty) is the best example. They have Turkic origin, but later changed to be Han, and all of their decendants were Hans. In East Nusa Tenggara, there are small kingdom, who have muslim royal family (they are minority there). After three generation, they convert to catholic, as the majority religion there.  
     
 
I said "maybe" not "mustbe". So maybe Zhu Yuanzhang, Zhu Yunwen, and Zhu Di were muslims.

EVEN if they were descendants of Muslims (and that is another thing to prove by itself), it does not mean they were Muslims. They would have to have shown some credible direct display or profession of the Islamic faith to be considered Muslims. This "undercover Muslim" proposition seems more like another self-contained conspiracy theory ... "they did all that stuff so that no one would suspect them".

--------------------

How about this. Looks close to the real Zhu

 

 

How do you know what the real Zhu Yuanzhang looked like?

Why does this guy have "Hui" features? I have seen other old Chinese paintings featuring people with "special faces"? Is Zhong Kui a Hui too?

--------------------

Zhu Yuanzhang went to become a buddhist monk at his teenage days because his family was too poor, but later his buddhist temple had to ask him to become a beggar b'cos it was also too poor to take care of him.

Zhu Yuanzhang was definitely a buddhist and not a muslim.

--------------------

 

Well, I don't understand... Why did it can be a problem in muslim world. Eunuch is common thing in muslim world. So, that's not a big deal.
Well, Islam, like many others religion, doesn't allow homosexuality. But it doesn't mean muslim have to kill the homosexual people. There are no massacre against homosexual people in Islam history. In several muslim countries, homosex are exist, and they don't have to be killed because of their sexual orientation.
youre correct, even in Ottoman empire when a Sultan or Emperor did go to war the gays where also there to salute him, they where allowed todo so. And it is dispicted with a miniature when Murad IV on his horse leaves the palace there where gays wich you could recognize it by their dealers.

i whas little bit late in this thread but must add some info on this quote:

[Note: Sipahi (transliterated in Chinese records as ‘yisibaxi’) is a Persian word meaning ‘soldiers’ – usually cavalrymen (in singular form it is sipasi). It later became the standard term for heavy cavalry in the Ottoman Empire, and also spread to Mogul India where it was the origin of the Anglicised term ‘sepoy’. The link between ‘sipahi’ and ‘yisibaxi’ was ‘discovered’ by me almost accidentally, when I came across the word ‘sipahi’ in a description of the Ottoman army and was struck by the similarity. Some searches on the internet finally proved my hunch to be correct. At that time, I was unaware that the link had already been suggested by “[s]ome Japanese and Chinese scholars”, as reported by Fan Ke in a 2001 article: “Maritime Muslims and Hui Identity: A South Fujian Case”, in Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol, 21, No. 2, pp. 316, 329n. So Kee Long is more specific in tracing the theory to Maejima Shinji’s two-part study “The Muslims in Ch’uan-chou at the End of the Yuan Dynasty”, in Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko, 31 & 32 (1973-74). The identification of ‘yisibaxi’ as ‘sipahi’ (or a related word, ‘ispah’) is disputed by Chinese scholars like Liao Dake, who favour alternative (but less convincing) identifications like ‘Isfahan’ (after the city in Persia) or even ‘Shahbandar’ (the Persian term for a port superintendent). The names of the Sipahi commanders, who held the rank of Wanhu (‘leader of ten thousand households’), mean ‘Sword of the Faith’ and ‘Commander of the Faith’ respectively, but there is no evidence that their actions were motivated primarily by religion, or that any violence was directed specifically against non-Muslims in Quanzhou.]

A Sipahi (Ottoman Turkish: سپاهی; also transliterated as Spahi, Sepahi, and Spakh) was a member of an élite mounted force within the Six Divisions of Cavalry of the Ottoman Empire. The name ultimately derives from the Persian سپاه (sepâh, meaning "army") and has the same root as the English term "sepoy". The Sipahis' status resembled that of the knights of medieval Europe. The Sipahi was the holder of a fief of land (تيمار tîmâr; hence the alternative name Tîmârlı Sipahi) granted directly by the Ottoman sultan, and was entitled to all of the income from that land, in return for military service. The peasants on the land were subsequently attached thereto.

The Sipahis were originally founded during the reign of Murad I. Although the Sipahis were originally recruited, like the Janissaries, using the devshirmeh system[1], by the time of Sultan Mehmed II, their ranks were only chosen from among the ethnic Turks who owned land within imperial borders[citation needed]. The Sipahi eventually became the largest of the six divisions of the Ottoman cavalry, and were the mounted counterpart to the Janissaries, who fought on foot. The duties of the Sipahis included riding with the sultan on parades and as a mounted bodyguard. In times of peace, they were also responsible for the collection of taxes. The Sipahis, however, should not be confused with the Timariots, who were irregular cavalry organised along feudal lines and known as "sipahi"s colloquially. In fact, the two formations had very little in common.

A tîmâr was the smallest unit of land owned by a Sipahi, providing a yearly revenue of no more than 10,000 akçe, which was between two and four times what a teacher earned[citation needed]. A ziamet (زعامت) was a larger unit of land, yielding up to 100,000 akçe, and was owned by Sipahis of officer rank. A has (غاص) was the largest unit of land, giving revenues of more than 100,000 akçe, and was only held by the highest-ranking members of the military. A tîmâr Sipahi was obliged to provide the army with up to five soldiers, a ziamet Sipahi with up to twenty, and a has Sipahi with far more than twenty.

From the middle of the 16th century, the Janissaries had started to be the most important part of the army, though the Sipahis remained an important factor in the empire's economy and politics. As late as the 17th century, the Sipahis were, together with their rivals the Janissaries, the de facto rulers in the early years of sultan Murad IV's reign. In 1826, the Sipahis played an important part in the disbandment of the Janissary corps. Two years later, however, Sultan Mahmud II revoked their privileges and dismissed them in favour of a more modern military structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sipahi3.jpg

a sipahi in 16th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Battle_...nna.Sipahis.jpg

sipahi's at the battle of vienna  
     
 
 i think if the ming emperor was muslim and hui ,are this mean ming dynastly are ruling by hui not han ? are this mean too the last han people dynastly was sung ?in malaysia a chinese who are become muslim are not more accept muslim as chinese han by the chinese ,han chinese are not really like muslim chinese in malaysia and indonesia this my personal opinion ,anyways how the muslim ming treat the jews if the ming was really a muslim ?,if ming was muslim will triad who was han support the ming during the downfall when manchu invasion off the middle kingdom ?

--------------------

 

selamat pagi but i don't understand this sentence of your's

"in malaysia a chinese who are become muslim are not more accept muslim as chinese han by the chinese "

selamat pagi ,what i mean is mostly chinese in malaysia accept chinese who if they religion are buddhist , christian ,hindu or even jews [there was no jew in malaysia] or no religion as chinese but chinese who become muslim as malay or hui ,i may wrong but many chinese in malaysia will not like they counterpart to become muslim because some history in the past ,i personal think the triad like heaven and earth and little knive will not support ming royalist if ming was a muslim ,or maybe chinese in china view muslim as difference and respect ,again this my personal opinion ,terima kasih and selamat hari merdeka to all malaysia .

--------------------

 
i think if the ming emperor was muslim and hui ,are this mean ming dynastly are ruling by hui not han ? are this mean too the last han people dynastly was sung ?in malaysia a chinese who are become muslim are not more accept muslim as chinese han by the chinese ,han chinese are not really like muslim chinese in malaysia and indonesia this my personal opinion ,anyways how the muslim ming treat the jews if the ming was really a muslim ?

Actually, Muslims would have had to (and in those days, did) treat the Jews better than they would have treated the Han. Jews are, after all, "dhimmis", so-called "people of the book". The Han, with their traditional non-Abrahamic religion, would have been outright "kufr" like the Hindus, and lower than the Jews as far as Muslims are concerned.

--------------------

"If an archeologist calls something a finial, he usually he has no idea what it is"
"We Vandals get blamed for stuff that was actually done by some errant Lombard or Visigoth"
"Nationalism is much about forgetting as it is about remembering"
 i think if the ming emperor zhu yuanzhang was a muslim ,can his descendant apostasy to became a buddhist or other religion ?anyways i watched many history and wuxia tvb serias[i not understand mandarin so i seldom watch seria from taiwan and china drama ] they never mention zhu as a muslim ,if the ming was a muslim are this mean princess chang ping was a muslim ,he marry chow sai hin in buddhist stlyle as i watched in tvb serias' dai lui far' which started by charmaine sheh and steven ma .

--------------------

chinese history forum are wrote by winner . 
     
 

youre correct, even in Ottoman empire when a Sultan or Emperor did go to war the gays where also there to salute him, they where allowed todo so. And it is dispicted with a miniature when Murad IV on his horse leaves the palace there where gays wich you could recognize it by their dealers.

i whas little bit late in this thread but must add some info on this quote:

 

A Sipahi (Ottoman Turkish: سپاهی; also transliterated as Spahi, Sepahi, and Spakh) was a member of an élite mounted force within the Six Divisions of Cavalry of the Ottoman Empire. The name ultimately derives from the Persian سپاه (sepâh, meaning "army") and has the same root as the English term "sepoy". The Sipahis' status resembled that of the knights of medieval Europe. The Sipahi was the holder of a fief of land (تيمار tîmâr; hence the alternative name Tîmârlı Sipahi) granted directly by the Ottoman sultan, and was entitled to all of the income from that land, in return for military service. The peasants on the land were subsequently attached thereto.

The Sipahis were originally founded during the reign of Murad I. Although the Sipahis were originally recruited, like the Janissaries, using the devshirmeh system[1], by the time of Sultan Mehmed II, their ranks were only chosen from among the ethnic Turks who owned land within imperial borders[citation needed]. The Sipahi eventually became the largest of the six divisions of the Ottoman cavalry, and were the mounted counterpart to the Janissaries, who fought on foot. The duties of the Sipahis included riding with the sultan on parades and as a mounted bodyguard. In times of peace, they were also responsible for the collection of taxes. The Sipahis, however, should not be confused with the Timariots, who were irregular cavalry organised along feudal lines and known as "sipahi"s colloquially. In fact, the two formations had very little in common.

A tîmâr was the smallest unit of land owned by a Sipahi, providing a yearly revenue of no more than 10,000 akçe, which was between two and four times what a teacher earned[citation needed]. A ziamet (زعامت) was a larger unit of land, yielding up to 100,000 akçe, and was owned by Sipahis of officer rank. A has (غاص) was the largest unit of land, giving revenues of more than 100,000 akçe, and was only held by the highest-ranking members of the military. A tîmâr Sipahi was obliged to provide the army with up to five soldiers, a ziamet Sipahi with up to twenty, and a has Sipahi with far more than twenty.

From the middle of the 16th century, the Janissaries had started to be the most important part of the army, though the Sipahis remained an important factor in the empire's economy and politics. As late as the 17th century, the Sipahis were, together with their rivals the Janissaries, the de facto rulers in the early years of sultan Murad IV's reign. In 1826, the Sipahis played an important part in the disbandment of the Janissary corps. Two years later, however, Sultan Mahmud II revoked their privileges and dismissed them in favour of a more modern military structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sipahi3.jpg

a sipahi in 16th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Battle_...nna.Sipahis.jpg

sipahi's at the battle of vienna

 

Chinese Ming Dynasty & Islamic Influences

1368-1644 AD - The period of the Chinese Ming dynasty which brought to fore Islam’s heights in Celestial China under the aegis of her archetypical emperor- Chu Yuan-chang (better known as Hung Wu) who traced his Muslim roots to Madeenah in Saudia.

1372 AD - A Tausug mission was sent to Imperial China that, up to this time, had only received sovereign states; Jolo would send more missions in the years following.

- Sabah Journal reported a Ming envoy, Prince Sahib ul-Kahar Ong Sum-ping to have sailed through the Sulu Archipelago to Kinabatangan in North Borneo and established a permanent Chinese foothold in that vast uninhabited island.

1380 AD - Arab judge-cum-scholar, Sheikh Karim ul-Makdum (Arabic for Afather@), arrived in Sulu from Melaka; He built the first mosque at Tubig Indangan in Simunul Sulu and advanced Islamic teaching to neighboring islands but died at Tandu Banak in Sibutu Sulu without ever returning home.

1386 AD - Admiral Cheng Chi-lung was installed as chief of the the Eastern hemisphere; his son Kuo Hsing-yeh (Koxinga to the Europeans) was better known in tactics and strategy is today revered as national hero in China.

1390 AD - Srivijayan Raja Baguinda, a minor ruler of Minangkabau, arrived in Sulu from Swarna Dwipa and founded the town of Bwansa in Jolo Island; His other compatriots, fleeing incoming Majapahit warriors, settled in Negri Sembilan (a state in present-day Malaysia).

1400-1440 AD – China reportedly sent naval expeditions to the coastal towns of present-day Philippines for forty years to familiarize with Moro piratical activities plying the south China Sea even engaging in desultory conflicts with Japanese corsairs.

1402 AD - Temasek ruler Parameswara, again running from invading Majapahit warriors, moved north to Muar and founded a Melaka settlement; He also embraced Islam on marrying a princess from Samudara Pasai and named himself Sultan Iskandar Shah of the Sultanate of Melaka to honor his ancestor Raja Iskandar Zulkarnain (the Macedonian greatman Alexander the Great).

- Melakan Sultan Shah sent a mission to Imperial China in 1405 for which admiral Chengho returned the courtesy in 1409; Shah himself went to China in 1411 AD - with a retinue of four-hundred-fifty confederates accompanied by Chengho himself.

- Melakan Sultan Shah’s home government reforms included specifying the functions of civil service offices like bendahara" (prime minister), temenggong laksamana" (admiral) and "shabandar" (harbor master) and adopted the custom of having ceremonial "white-and-yellow" umbrellas for royalties; He also laid the foundation of present-day Malay court procedures.

1403 AD - Melakan Sultan Shah was visited by a Chinese envoy Yin Ching, and admiral Chengho who arranged for his 1411 China visit; For this effort, Chengho was revered by the locals as the Venerated Sam-po Kong and built for him a baronial temple in Melaka.

1405-1433 AD - Ming emperor Yung Lo sent for seven naval expeditions from his Yangtze estuary to comb the shores of the Eastern Hemisphere employing 27,800 military crew in 1,180 Asampans@ and commanded by Muslim admiral Chengho; Chengho died in 1433 in Calicut (present-day Calcutta). According to Nichol, about the same period, another Chinese envoy was sent to Sulu corollary to this colossal plan of emperor Yung Lo.

1406 AD - Brunei Sultan Ahmad (a.k.a. Pateh Berbai) sent an envoy to Imperial China which occasion inspired him to change his north Bornean settlement to Brunei from a Sanskrit word Abarunai.

1408 AD - Chinese admiral Pei Pei Hsein, who was originally in the expeditionary fleet of Sam-po Kong that earlier visited Melakan Sultan Shah, was forced to land in Jolo because of monsoon rains and settled for sometime in Maubuh beach where he built a deep-well artesian as a gesture of gratitude for local hospitality.

- Early Jolo Chinese settlers revered him on his death as Poon-tao Kong, Athe Celestial,@ and interred his immortal remains at Jati Tunggal in Indanan Sulu where a memorial tombstone stands today.

- Islam widely spread to the North Borneo island in the Darvel Bay area.

1417 AD - Sulu Eastern Nakura Paduka Batara, together with Western Nakura Maharajah Gemding and Northern Nakura Paduka Balabu, including three-hundred-thirty-four Tausug nobles, visited Dezhou town in Shandong China on invitation of the Ming emperor Yung Lo.

- Nakura Paduka Batara of the northern kingdom, however, fell ill in Dezhou and died, necessitating Emperor Yung Lo to order his ministers to honor the distinguished guest with a funeral befitting a visiting king.

- Other tribute bearing missions were sent between 1420-1454 but contacts abruptly ended in 1473 when the Brunei leaders started to control the foreign policy of the Royal Sultanate of Sulu which is now under their governance.

1433 AD - A Seven-Datu-Council codified the Code of Kalantiaw (by Kalantiaw) and the Maragtas Code (by Sumakwel) for the people of Panay Island; Three Adatus from the original ten who came to Panay left for Batangas and Mindoro; Datu Putih was one of them but eventually returned to North Borneo from where no trace of him was found.

http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=...i=943&t=943

 

Ming dynasty is MUSLIM!!!?

Author: Huang Baoxin (---.brunet.bn)
Many people question the identity of the first Ming emperor, Zhu Yuanzhang or Hongwu Emperor. Some claim that he was a Muslim of Semitic (Semu) origin.

Yusuf Chang, a Chinese Muslim from Taiwan, was one of those who made this claim. He claimed that his ancestor had married a Ming princess and thus he was a descendant of Zhu Yuanzhang and knows the secrets of the Islamic religion of the Ming royal family.

He presented many startling evidences to support his claim. They are:

1. When Zhu Yuanzhang was young, his family perished in a famine and he buried them by wrapping them in white clothes. Wrapping the dead in white cloth is a Muslim custom.

2. Zhu Yuanzhang's closest associates were Muslims. Thus, the Ming dynasty was founded by Muslims.

3. Zhu Yuanzhang passed a strict law forbidding 'wine'. Once he had the son of his close associate killed for breaking the law. 'Wine' is strictly forbidden in Islam.

4. Empress Ma (Zhu's consort) was a Muslim. She had personally cook all the meals for Zhu, even after he had become the Emperor.

5. The royal colour of the Ming dynasty was green, the colour which symbolizes Islam.

6. Zhu Yuanzhang ordered the building of a mosque in Nanjing after he ascended the throne and he personally wrote a poem praising Islam and the Prophet Muhammad. This poem is seen by Muslims as the 'syahada' the testimony of Zhu's faith in Islam.

7. Many Muslims rose to high ranks during the Ming dynasty. One good example was Admiral Zheng He. Admiral Zheng He's fleet sailed to Mecca, Arabia and performed the 'haj'. Yusuf Chang claims that Zheng He was sent by the Ming emperor to perform the 'haj' on his behalf because the emperor was not able to do so as he wanted to keep his religion a secret among the non-Muslim masses. This practice is allowed in Islam.

8. The Ming dynasty established good ties with many Muslim countries. This is because the Ming dynasty is MUSLIM and the religion of the Ming royal family is ISLAM.

http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=...i=945&t=943

 

Asiawind forums is a favourite hang-out of people with all kinds of wacky theories about China. I wouldn't believe anything I read there.

I have seen Eurocentric history and Sinocentric history, but increasingly I'm seeing on the internet what I'd term Islamocentric history. One more reason for historians to weep.

BTW, the official colour of the Ming was not green - it was red, same as the Song dynasty. And even if it was, green is one of the colours in the Five Phases cycle, and need not have anything to do with Islam. Otherwise we could say the Environmentalist movement is Islamic.

--------------------

I have seen Eurocentric history and Sinocentric history, but increasingly I'm seeing on the internet what I'd term Islamocentric history. One more reason for historians to weep.

LOL!
You would weep over things that non-historians read?
99.9% of the people that believe in these theories tend to be non-historians with minute Gra'gh.

--------------------

You would weep over things that non-historians read?

Yes, because non-historians have a tendency to believe what they read, and then spread it further.

The people with real influence in the world are not the historians, but the ideologues. And the uses that ideologues put distorted versions of history to can be very destructive indeed.

--------------------

 Zhu Yuanzhang passed a strict law forbidding 'wine'. Once he had the son of his close associate killed for breaking the law. 'Wine' is strictly forbidden in Islam.

From what I read, zhu yuanzhang was a buddhist monk. Why is it that some muslims are trying to spread some propaganda ?

Wine is also forbidden in buddhism. And so is meat (which include pork), so does that mean that buddhist are also muslims ? To be strict, true buddhist are vegetarians.  
     
 
Wine is also forbidden in buddhism. And so is meat (which include pork), so does that mean that buddhist are also muslims ? To be strict, true buddhist are vegetarians.

In fact buddhist do not necessary have to avoid consuming meat, they simply must avoid killing. As long as the animal was not killed specifically for them(which includes purchasing the meat) they have not broken this rule. It's a small distinction but one that is noneless important.  
     
 
猪年话猪：明朝皇帝“禁猪”事件　
　

一。 先介绍两个现代人。

 

周有光 ，我国德高望重的著名语言学家 ，任中国社会科学院研究生院研究员、语言文字应用委员会研究员，他的话可是有份量的 ，以他的年龄和身份没必要哗众取崇的。他说： “辽、金、元、明、清这五代的1000年，都是外族打进中原来加以统治的。 其中辽、金、元、清是外族，大家都是同意的， 明朝是不是外族呢？ 现在新的考证说明太祖朱元璋不是汉族而是回族，这已经证明了。 ”

 

陈梧桐，著名明史专家，中央民族大学教授， 兼任中国明史学会理事、朱立璋研究会顾问。 他对周有光上面的话反驳， 但他的反驳软弱无力，基本都是推测或者主观上的。 这从反面证实了周有光的观点。

二。关于周有光和陈梧桐的辩论的原文。

陈梧桐的辩论如下：

著名语言学家周有光一语激起千层浪───
认为朱元璋是回族人的学者，主要有三个方面的原因，这三个原因是否站得住脚？

陈梧桐先生认为，目前一些认定朱元璋是回族的论说都是站不住脚的。

明武宗的禁猪令是否和朱元璋是回族有关？

还有人以明武宗正德十四年（1519年）南行途中，曾于十二月间在仪真（今江苏仪
征）下令禁猪，在该县行祭祀孔子礼时，也不供猪头而供羊头，来表明他是信奉伊
斯兰教，遵守禁食猪肉教规的回族。

陈先生指出，得出这种结论是因为对史实不了解造成的。明武宗的禁猪令讲得非常
清楚，他之所以禁猪是因为他本人属猪，又姓朱，与其宗教信仰没有任何关系。禁
猪令一出，当时南直隶、山东等地的村市居民被迫宰杀所养的猪，连小猪也都埋掉，
明武宗在仪真祭孔时，无猪可用，只得用羊头替代猪头来供奉孔老夫子。明武宗本
人既不信奉伊斯兰教，也不忌食猪肉，有明一代，宫廷御膳，就从未断过猪肉。据
《大明会典》的记载，负责置办御膳的光禄寺，每年所用牲口数达30100头，其中就
有猪18900头。
有大量史料证明，朱元璋是地地道道的汉族人。

陈先生介绍，在朱元璋亲撰的《朱氏世德碑》、《皇陵碑》以及各种诏敕诗文和各
种文献史籍中，都未见到朱元璋本人或者他的前辈、后裔信奉伊斯兰教的记载，却
有大量崇信佛、道的记载。

三。百岁老人周有光教授没有回答陈先生，相反，周有光教授却在读者杂志道歉，
说自己误信了国外的研究成果。我来代替周教授驳斥一下著名明史专家陈梧桐。

1。陈说：“有人以明武宗正德十四年（1519年）南行途中，曾于十二月间在仪真
（今江苏仪征）下令禁猪，在该县行祭祀孔子礼时，也不供猪头而供羊头，来表明
他是信奉伊斯兰教，遵守禁食猪肉教规的回族。
陈先生指出，得出这种结论是因为对史实不了解造成的。明武宗的禁猪令讲得非常
清楚，他之所以禁猪是因为他本人属猪，又姓朱，与其宗教信仰没有任何关系。”

果然与其宗教信仰没有任何关系么？请看：

明朝皇帝禁止养猪，记载的有：“九月，上次保定(河北省清苑县)禁民间养猪，着
为令。”《明书武宗本纪》； “上巡幸所至，禁民间畜猪，远近屠杀殆尽，田家有
产者，悉投诸水。”《明实录武宗实录》

依据明武宗朱厚照（1506─1521在位）对各宗教的评论和《御制尊真主事诗》。武
宗评论各宗教日：“儒者之学虽可以开物成物，而不足以穷神知化。佛老之学，似
类穷神知化而不能复命归真。盖诸教之道各执一偏，唯清真认主之教，深源于正理，
此所以乘万世与天壤久也。”《尊真主事诗》日：“一教玄玄诸教迷，其中奥妙少
人知，佛是人修人是佛，不尊真主却尊谁？”

结论：明武宗朱厚照禁猪和与其宗教信仰不是没有任何关系，而是大有关系。

2。陈说：“在朱元璋亲撰的《朱氏世德碑》、《皇陵碑》以及各种诏敕诗文和各种
文献史籍中，都未见到朱元璋本人或者他的前辈、后裔信奉伊斯兰教的记载”

其实并不然，朱元璋登基后敕建清真寺于南京、西安及滇、闽、粤等地区。南京清
真寺赐名“净觉寺”落成后，并御制至圣《百字赞》赐清真寺，《百字赞》赞颂了
真主和穆圣，并褒扬了伊斯兰，如果对伊斯兰没有感情和深刻的认识，写不出如此
杰作。《百字赞》收录于清代刘智著作《天方至圣实录》内，其全文如下：“乾坤
初始，天籍注名，传教大圣，降生西域，受授天经，三十部册，普化众生，亿兆君
师，万圣领袖，协助天运，保庇国民，五时祈佑，默祝太平，存心真主，加志穷民，
拯救患难，洞彻幽冥，超拔灵魂，脱离罪业，仁覆天下，道冠古今，降邪归一，教
名清真，穆罕默德。至贵圣人。”

结论：明史专家再次对历史“撒谎”

四。证明明朝皇帝是穆斯林的证据是两本书
1。19世纪，在土耳其发现了旅行家赛义德阿里.阿克巴尔哈塔伊
于1516年(即回历922年，明武宗正德十一年) ，用波斯文写的《中国纪行》一书。
全书共2l章，用较多的篇幅介绍了明代中国伊斯兰教的情况， 特别记述了明代王
室与伊斯兰教的关系。中国张至善、张铁伟、岳家明三人以英、德译本和新波斯文
本为依据， 编译成汉文本，并附有国际上对该书研究之论文13篇,照片和图表7幅,1988年
,由三联书店出版。
波斯旅行家赛义德·阿里·阿克巴尔·哈塔伊于1500游历中国，于1516年在当时奥
斯曼帝国首都君士坦丁堡，用波斯语写成《中国纪行》一书，作为礼物奉献给土耳
其素丹赛利姆一世。该书全面介绍了当时中国社会各方面的状况。作者出于穆斯林
的宗教感情，以较多的篇幅着重介绍了明朝王室与伊斯兰教的关系，说：“宫廷内
有皇帝专用的清真寺，有宣礼员，主麻日（星期五）皇帝到城外的清真寺做聚礼，
以及穆斯林文臣武将对明朝开国的贡献、皇帝对他们的重用等。说：“从皇帝的某
些行为看，他已信奉伊斯兰教了，然而由于害怕丧失权力，他不能对此公开宣布。
这是因为他的国家风俗和法规所规定的……。”阿里·阿克巴尔的描述是他亲眼所
见，与中国民间的传说相吻合。

2。台湾马明道参照该书及明正史、野史、史学家的评述、回民口碑传说， 对明朝
王室的族属和宗教信仰进行了详尽的研究考证， 于1973年写出《明朝皇家信仰考初
稿》一书。 确认朱元璋、马皇后及其家族和亲戚均为回回。 明太祖洪武帝姓朱，
名元璋，字国瑞，原名兴宗，生于安徽凤阳县，古称濠州，其周围各县，如定远、
寿县、怀远、临淮等为历史上回回聚居区。父名朱世珍，母陈氏，生兄弟四人，元
璋排行第四，长兄兴隆，次兄兴盛，三兄兴祖，全家务农，地仅数亩，颇贫寒。凤
阳城为一南北长、东西窄的长方形小城，西门直对东门，两门之间为一长街，将风
阳城分为南北两部分，称南城与北城，北城居民几乎全部都是汉民；而南城居民全
部为回民，其中绝大多数姓朱，有清真寺一所，位于南城中央偏西。朱元璋生于南
城朱姓群内，按常理推，朱元璋应为回回。1935年，马明道先生随其兄马宏道先生
(1899一1968)到凤阳考察访问，当时所见所闻和当地回民父老所说与上述情况相符。

 

最后，现在的学术界对明朝皇帝是穆斯林所谓持审慎的态度，也许是为了一些人的
所谓大汉族自尊心，是怕更多的少数民族皇帝开创中国历史的事实。这样，元，明，
清三朝的近千年历史都有少数民族统治地位。个人认为，中国的历史学者应该摆脱
成见，做个名符其实的学者，中国是56个民族组成的，这是事实，还历史以真相有
什么不好的么？何必要如此拙劣的掩饰？关于明朝皇帝是穆斯林，详细参见我的相
关文章。

 

 

--------------------

Asiawind forums is a favourite hang-out of people with all kinds of wacky theories about China. I wouldn't believe anything I read there.

I have seen Eurocentric history and Sinocentric history, but increasingly I'm seeing on the internet what I'd term Islamocentric history. One more reason for historians to weep.

BTW, the official colour of the Ming was not green - it was red, same as the Song dynasty. And even if it was, green is one of the colours in the Five Phases cycle, and need not have anything to do with Islam. Otherwise we could say the Environmentalist movement is Islamic.

Lol, i wonder where is Red Turban army is from!!!!!! Yeah im really sure its green. So whats with this lovesue guy is he a supporter for the muslims and claims Ming dynasty was established by muslim influence?

P.S No offence but, i hope his not the second version of chinghiz...........

best regards,
Intem

This post has been edited by intem: Feb 20 2007, 04:44 AM  
     

Nice Info thanks   
     

I think I have posted this before,

If Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, why did he hide his faith? Tell me in history which Muslim leaders were clandestine about their religion? Why would we need historians to "read between the lines" to establish him as a Muslim?

- If Zhu was afraid that the Han peoples wouldn't support him if he were Muslim, then i tell you, Mohammed the Prophet had even the more difficult task of converting Arabs to Islam, in the beginning!!!

- Why did not Zhu declare Ming China a Muslim state? Why did not Islamic states of Southeast Asia, especially the Malacca Sultanate mentioned in the Sehajah Melayu that Ming were Muslim??

- You would think Ming would had more dealings with Muslim Arabs, but Jesuits featured prominently in Ming courts?

- Wouldn't Ming went on a jihad and convert all around them to Islam? The Ottoman turks did spread Islam into Europe, as well as the Moors in Spain.

- We expect to find then in Fengyang, Nanjing and Beijing grandoise mosques that we now see in Istanbul and other Muslim states, but where were they?

I've heard some pretty wacky theories regarding Chinese history. I've heard Eurocentric, Afrocentric, Pan-Altaic theories, but now apparently Muslims want their piece of the Chinese pie. Not that I have anything against Muslims, the Hui are an integral part of China historically and presently but arguing that the Ming was an Islamic state is a bit of a stretch. The reason people don't accept this is simply because it's not true.  
     
 

I think I have posted this before,

If Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, why did he hide his faith? Tell me in history which Muslim leaders were clandestine about their religion? Why would we need historians to "read between the lines" to establish him as a Muslim?

- If Zhu was afraid that the Han peoples wouldn't support him if he were Muslim, then i tell you, Mohammed the Prophet had even the more difficult task of converting Arabs to Islam, in the beginning!!!

- Why did not Zhu declare Ming China a Muslim state? Why did not Islamic states of Southeast Asia, especially the Malacca Sultanate mentioned in the Sehajah Melayu that Ming were Muslim??

- You would think Ming would had more dealings with Muslim Arabs, but Jesuits featured prominently in Ming courts?

- Wouldn't Ming went on a jihad and convert all around them to Islam? The Ottoman turks did spread Islam into Europe, as well as the Moors in Spain.

- We expect to find then in Fengyang, Nanjing and Beijing grandoise mosques that we now see in Istanbul and other Muslim states, but where were they?

first of all this is my first post in this thread so i needed to pick up were you started. and i'm allso a noob when it comes to chinese history(but thats why I am here to learn)

What if the Ming emperor was Muslim... I DON'T THINK SO.. why well I have a couple of speculations.

1. The Emperor was known as a God on earth if he was muslim he couldn't possibly claim this title.(and if he did the peopel wouldn't be that loyal to him anymore)
2. There would be clear documents of this.
3. Just because Zheng He was muslim doesn't make teh Emperor Muslim.

these are for the Emperor personaly....

As for the people....

Why do people convert to certain religions?

1. Main reason is they get conquered
2. Leaders convert for political reasons(this is why the Turks converted to Islam to be in controle of teh Caliphate(all Muslim territory) wich they did. The chinese would do the same)
3. They have bno choice but to accept the religions(Romans with christianity)

and if the Emperor was Muslim I'm saying if.......That doesn't make the people automaticly muslim does it

 
     
1. emperor aren't god on earth. That's Japan, not China. China believes the righteous receives mandate from heaven. At most they are called God's son. But I think even that translation is misleading. It probably just means chosen one of the heaven, as Zi means person instead of son.

2. there wouldn't. Because Ming fought against the mongolians on the basis of driving away foreign invaders. To declare he now believes in a foreign god (Muslim has yet to integrate into a part of Han core culture) is self-defeating.

3. The emperor grow up in a city with a large muslim population, he even grow up in the muslim part of that city. the emperor buries his parents by wrapping them in white cloth, that is a pure muslim tradition, not Han.

--------------------

So whats your point, you mean Emperor Hong Wu was a muslim.........? Do you have any evidence to proove that he lives and grow up in a city with large population of muslims.

 

 2. there wouldn't. Because Ming fought against the mongolians on the basis of driving away foreign invaders. To declare he now believes in a foreign god (Muslim has yet to integrate into a part of Han core culture) is self-defeating.

Why wouldn't a Muslim leader declare himself a Muslim? Even Islam wasn't a core Han culture should not prevent Zhu Yuanzhang from doing so, if he ever was a Muslim. He would dearly wish to emulate Mohammed the Prophet in converting the Han Chinese to Islam. When Mohammed spread Islam, it wasn't in any case a core culture of the Arab world! There were Muslim Ming generals who fought with Zhu to overthrow the Mongols, so why was Zhu so secretive about his faith?

Note that Zhu Yuanzhang used to be a Buddhist monk, perhaps for survival, that would make him a very sinful Muslim. Or unless you declare now he converted to Islam later in life.

It is not surprising that some people claim Zhu Yuanzhang a Muslim, others a Jurchen, as Zhu was a prominent figure in Chinese history, for their own agenda.

One more point I would like to make is, if Zhu was a Muslim (secret or not), wouldn't the Qing historians picked that up to discredit the Ming in the eyes of the Han Chinese?

http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/edit...l.php?issue=005

In the early life of the founder of the Ming dynasty, Zhu Yuanzhang (Fig. 11), the emperor-to-be was a member of a religious sect known as Mingjiao. Upon ascending the throne, Zhu suppressed this movement and all traces of his earlier association with it. The resulting ambiguity in the historical record has allowed room for the widespread belief amongst Chinese Muslims today that Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, at least in his private life.[7] There is little direct evidence to support such a view, and historians generally agree that the Mingjiao sect was organised around some form of Manicheanism or Maitreyan Buddhist cult. What can be said without straining the historical record is that many of the generals who joined the revolutionary movement led by Zhu Yuanzhang were Muslim, for example Mu Ying and Chang Yuchun, who campaigned in Yunnan and central Shandong, respectively. These two areas later became leading centres of Islamic learning in China. (Figs 12 & 12a)

Bai Shouyi, in a 1946 work on the history of Islam in China, told of an inherited belief within the Muslim community in Xi'an that Zhu Yuanzhang was born into a Muslim family, that the "usurping" Jianwen emperor went on pilgrimage to Mecca after fleeing from China, and that the 11th Ming emperor, Wuzong (Zhu Houzhao, reign title Zhengde, r.1506-1522), was a practising Muslim. Bai Shouyi did not discuss the historical credibility of these communal beliefs, and a low-level debate has continued since then on whether the first Ming emperor was actually Hui or Han. Evidence cited in favour of claiming him for the Hui side is that Zhu Yuanzhang had an empress called Ma, a common Hui surname; that a domed tomb was built at his burial site in the manner of Muslim dignitaries of the time; and that he wrote a tract in praise of the Prophet Muhammad. Two recent additions to this debate were printed in Zhonghua dushu bao in 2005, Zhou Youguang advancing the case in favour of Zhu Yuanzhang being a Muslim (see "Baisui laoren Zhou Youguang da kewen" (Centenarian Zhou Youguang answers reporter's questions), Zhonghua dushu bao, 22 January 2005), and Chen Wutong countering against this view (see Chen, "Shei zhengmingle Zhu Yuanzheng shi Huizu" (Who has ever proved that Zhu Yuanzhang was a Hui?), Zhonghua dushu bao, 15 June 2005, at http://culture.people.com.cn/GB/40479/40481/3484545.html, accessed on 6 Mar 2006).

Perhaps most who claim Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim are Muslims themselves......

http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2006abst/Interarea/I-224.htm

Outing Ming Taizu: How and Why Did Zhu Yuanzhang Become a Muslim?

Zvi Ben Dor Benite, New York University

In recent years, Chinese historiography has undergone a radical ‘opening up’ in all senses of the term. While for much of the past century Chinese historians took Chinese claims about the uniformity of Chinese culture at face value, scholars are now probing the multicultural realities that lie behind ‘Han’ Chinese cultural chauvinism. On the face of it, the Ming period is much more immune to such challenges than the Qing. One fascinating, little-documented feature of this history is the longstanding Muslim claim that the great Ming founder was secretly a Muslim.

Chinese Muslim traditions cast Ming Taizu as an almost gnostic figure, whose true nature could only be properly understood by those like him – by other Muslims. The claim cast Ming Taizu as a secret laborer for Islam, as Chinese Muslims themselves secretly labored for the imperium. This interpretation gave Chinese Muslims a metaphoric means of understanding themselves as central, if hidden, members of Chinese society and culture.

This paper projects Chinese Muslim visions of Ming Taizu upon the broader historical backdrop of the late imperial period, unearthing the reasons that Ming Taizu came to be of such vital importance to Chinese Muslim tradition. Drawing on hitherto unknown source materials, the paper shows how Chinese Muslims of the Ming and Qing, like other ‘aliens’ of the period, were extraordinarily aware of their time as a multicultural one, and were consequently able to understand themselves as central to its culture, and even make political demands on that basis.

Although Zhu was not a Muslim, some of his generals who fought with him and assisted him in founding a new dynasty like Chang Yuchun, Mu Ying, Hu Dahai, Tang He, Deng Yu were Huihuis and ranked among the highest in the newly founded Ming dynasty. This is fact.

http://www.aboutxinjiang.com/zt/Islam/CHAP...se%20Inland.htm

According to legend the name of the Jing Jue Mosque is connected to Zhu Yuanzhang, founder of the Ming Dynasty (on the throne 1368-1398 A.D.). Legend has it that among the Hui Huis in Nanjing: Chang Yuchun, Hu Dahai and other Muslims generals often went to the San Shan Jie Mosque for prayer. One day, Zhu Yuanzhang went to the Mosque to look for them for an important matter. Seeing them performing prayer in the hall, he stepped in without thinking. According to Islamic Law, no one could enter prayer hall with shoes, so the mosque server standing aside asked him to take off his shoes, and Zhu Yuanzhang took his foot back. After that, the Mosque was renamed Jing Jue when he ordered to rebuilt it. ('Jing Jue' literally means clean and conscious, its pronunciation is similar to 'Jin Jiao' (pronounced as Jin Jue in the Nanjing dialect) which means to step foot inside)  
     
 
http://www.aboutxinjiang.com/zt/Islam/CHAP...se%20Inland.htm

According to legend the name of the Jing Jue Mosque is connected to Zhu Yuanzhang, founder of the Ming Dynasty (on the throne 1368-1398 A.D.). Legend has it that among the Hui Huis in Nanjing: Chang Yuchun, Hu Dahai and other Muslims generals often went to the San Shan Jie Mosque for prayer. One day, Zhu Yuanzhang went to the Mosque to look for them for an important matter. Seeing them performing prayer in the hall, he stepped in without thinking. According to Islamic Law, no one could enter prayer hall with shoes, so the mosque server standing aside asked him to take off his shoes, and Zhu Yuanzhang took his foot back. After that, the Mosque was renamed Jing Jue when he ordered to rebuilt it. ('Jing Jue' literally means clean and conscious, its pronunciation is similar to 'Jin Jiao' (pronounced as Jin Jue in the Nanjing dialect) which means to step foot inside)

//According to legend //

Which legend? Can you provide the source such as which book and so on?

The website you provided have the wrong picture of real portait of Zhu Yuan Zhang, who have about 5-6 portaits.

Following were close to real.

 

Following portraits were far away from real ZhuYuanZhang:

 

 

http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/edit...l.php?issue=005

Fig. 11 Detail of a portrait of Zhu Yuanzhang in the collection of the National Museum of China.

 

From those portraits, Zhu is likely a Semu but not a muslim from Han.

--------------------

//According to legend //

Which legend? Can you provide the source such as which book and so on?

The website you provided have the wrong picture of real portait of Zhu Yuan Zhang, who have about 5-6 portaits.

...

From those portraits, Zhu is likely a Semu but not a muslim from Han.

Great. Now he is not only a Muslim but a Semu to boot.

First of all, there is no firm evidence that he was a Muslim from ANY ethnic group. He was raised Buddhist, lived Buddhist and died Buddhist.

Secondly, none of the portraits show any features that would be out of place in a Han person. Looking somewhat homely or having a few bold features does not prove one is of foreign racial origin.

 

--------------------

2. there wouldn't. Because Ming fought against the mongolians on the basis of driving away foreign invaders. To declare he now believes in a foreign god (Muslim has yet to integrate into a part of Han core culture) is self-defeating.

Why wouldn't a Muslim leader declare himself a Muslim? Even Islam wasn't a core Han culture should not prevent Zhu Yuanzhang from doing so, if he ever was a Muslim. He would dearly wish to emulate Mohammed the Prophet in converting the Han Chinese to Islam. When Mohammed spread Islam, it wasn't in any case a core culture of the Arab world! There were Muslim Ming generals who fought with Zhu to overthrow the Mongols, so why was Zhu so secretive about his faith?

Note that Zhu Yuanzhang used to be a Buddhist monk, perhaps for survival, that would make him a very sinful Muslim. Or unless you declare now he converted to Islam later in life.

The thing is he wasn't a Buddhist monk. As it wasn't a Buddhist temple. sources are in the Chinese article posted on top of this page, that includes the sources of Zhu Yuan Zhang growing up in a muslim side of the city. I am a little lazy to translate now, so wait till when i am in the mood.

And Zhu is different from other Muslim leaders because in the middle east, they raised their banner in name of denoucing false prophets and gods and idols.

Now Zhu raised their banners to drive away foreign invaders.

And it's because the middle east muslim leaders were fighting powers that believed in many gods and idols.

Zhu was fighting against an enemy that simply were foreign invaders.

And since his target was different, he had to draw supporters with different slogans, and therefore he cannot make his empire a target of his own slogans after he has the position. Zhu was scared for his position. That is why he was still killing his comrades almost till the very end of his life.

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Note that Zhu Yuanzhang used to be a Buddhist monk, perhaps for survival, that would make him a very sinful Muslim.

I would think between starvation and temporary enslavement, most people (Muslims included) would go for the latter.
So it doesn't really matter if Zhu was a Muslim or not.
And if those two books should prove Zhu's Islamic leanings, I could say that he had Islamic leanings so as not to alienate one of the most powerful and influential minorities of his times - the Muslims. Why? Because during the Yuan dynasty they were the clerks, taxmen and staffed the various bureaucratic offices that kept the Yuan dynasty going. Now if you are going to replace the Mongols, you have to show to the expert staffs that you are not going to ruin their lives.

If the coverup is considered clumsy, the claims are even worse:
The first source is a gift to the Ottoman Sultans saying that China is a Muslim nation.
Keep in mind that around the same century, the Europeans said that the Prester John and the Gran Khan of Cathay were ardent Christians and hate "Mohammedans".
The second source is a contemporary work done by, presumably, Muslims again.
If you believe in the claims, you have an issue. I won't even call Zhu a buddhist. He's an autocrat through and through, and religion is only a tool.
Now that's my kind of guy.

This post has been edited by Sephodwyrm: May 7 2007, 12:07 PM

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This is seriously lame crap.
I won't give even a cent to this whole Muslim business.
If they had to rely on what is termed "Folk History"

And I don't really care if the Ming had Muslim Emperors, or not.
You can even call the Ming emperors closet Christians and it won't change a thing.
I would think between starvation and temporary enslavement, most people (Muslims included) would go for the latter.
So it doesn't really matter if Zhu was a Muslim or not.
And if those two books should prove Zhu's Islamic leanings, I could say that he had Islamic leanings so as not to alienate one of the most powerful and influential minorities of his times - the Muslims. Why? Because during the Yuan dynasty they were the clerks, taxmen and staffed the various bureaucratic offices that kept the Yuan dynasty going. Now if you are going to replace the Mongols, you have to show to the expert staffs that you are not going to ruin their lives.

If the coverup is considered clumsy, the claims are even worse:
The first source is a gift to the Ottoman Sultans saying that China is a Muslim nation.
Keep in mind that around the same century, the Europeans said that the Prester John and the Gran Khan of Cathay were ardent Christians and hate "Mohammedans".
The second source is a contemporary work done by, presumably, Muslims again.
If you believe in the claims, you have an issue. I won't even call Zhu a buddhist. He's an autocrat through and through, and religion is only a tool.
Now that's my kind of guy.

why, just because it's not the main stream it's crap?

whether Zhu is muslim or not isn't important to most poeple, but it is interesting to people who likes history and scholars who studies history. in reality who really cares if Han or Roman were better army? but it certainly is interesting to a lot of people on this forum.

it is a theory with enough evidence.

I don't know if he was Muslim.

but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east. most Han buildings are built with gate facing south. EVERYONE knows houses should have gate facing the south. Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Why would a buddhist temple built to have gate facing east when buildings in those days were built according to tradition.

This post has been edited by naruwan: May 7 2007, 02:00 PM

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Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Pure BS.
The Gates should face east if its a Muslim mosque, since the people would be praying to the West. People don't pray towards the gate where the people are coming in. Whats even worse, is that Qibla is 39 degrees North in Beijing and 23 degrees North in Canton. Not much of a variation. The gates should face south according to Qibla.

And I never said those sources are crap because its not mainstream.
I said those sources are crap because they were written by authors who have just as much interest to portray a Muslim China.
If we were to consider these sources seriously, we might as well consider the tales about Prester John and the Gran Khan (people don't even know if Marco Polo really saw Kublai or not) as authentic history and not a myth.
If your argument consists of putting words in other people's mouth instead of really discussing about the assumptions of each side, you are inept.

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The Gates should face east if its a Muslim mosque, since the people would be praying to the West. People don't pray towards the gate where the people are coming in. Whats even worse, is that Qibla is 39 degrees North in Beijing and 23 degrees North in Canton. Not much of a variation. The gates should face south according to Qibla.

And I never said those sources are crap because its not mainstream.
I said those sources are crap because they were written by authors who have just as much interest to portray a Muslim China.
If we were to consider these sources seriously, we might as well consider the tales about Prester John and the Gran Khan (people don't even know if Marco Polo really saw Kublai or not) as authentic history and not a myth.
If your argument consists of putting words in other people's mouth instead of really discussing about the assumptions of each side, you are inept.

how is what you said different from what i said.

READ.

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The Gates should face east if its a Muslim mosque, since the people would be praying to the West. People don't pray towards the gate where the people are coming in.

You know, I just thought of something. With the world being confirmed as round, would it technically be OK for Muslims to pray toward the east when they should be praying towards the west and vice versa? 

 It is not a theory with "enough" evidence. It is a theory ... period. One with very flimsy and circumstantial evidence, plenty of strong counter-evidence, and kept afloat only by historical conspiracy allegations and ethnic nationalist appeals. As if we didn't have enough of that "Jurchen Ming" theory, we inexplicably keep returning to this "Muslim Ming" theory, with its new spawn, the "Muslim Semu Ming" theory. Maybe we should set those two camps against each other and go out for tea. Then again, given how ardently they cling to their pet theories despite repeated debunking, we'd probably return to be faced with some new "Muslim Jurchen-Semu Ming" theory.

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Why would Zhu Yuanzhang HAD to be a Muslim living in a Muslim part of the city, if the claims were true? If there is anything in it, it probably showed he had contact with Muslims and perhaps understood their culture and beliefs.

but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east. most Han buildings are built with gate facing south. EVERYONE knows houses should have gate facing the south. Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Everyone know it is impossible to have EVERY houses to face south. While it is ideal it is simply impractical. The city will look impossibly awkward with every houses facing south? Anyway, while these are ideal principles we know a lot of structures goes against the "rules" and were built with other considerations such as topography, siting and existing adjacent buildings. Almost every imperial cities of Chinese dynasties does not adhere strictly to the principles of the wangcheng (Imperial city) stipulated in the kaogongji. Look at Tang Chang'an and Ming Beijing.

As for those portraits, if you ask me, it's six for one, half a dozen for the other. who living in this epoch has really seen him?

So far, IMHO, all the evidences on all fronts show Zhu respected Islam as a religion, like he respected Buddhist monks, but that does not make him a Muslim.  
--------------------

Why would Zhu Yuanzhang HAD to be a Muslim living in a Muslim part of the city, if the claims were true? If there is anything in it, it probably showed he had contact with Muslims and perhaps understood their culture and beliefs.

but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east. most Han buildings are built with gate facing south. EVERYONE knows houses should have gate facing the south. Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Everyone know it is impossible to have EVERY houses to face south. While it is ideal it is simply impractical. The city will look impossibly awkward with every houses facing south? Anyway, while these are ideal principles we know a lot of structures goes against the "rules" and were built with other considerations such as topography, siting and existing adjacent buildings. Almost every imperial cities of Chinese dynasties does not adhere strictly to the principles of the wangcheng (Imperial city) stipulated in the kaogongji. Look at Tang Chang'an and Ming Beijing.

As for those portraits, if you ask me, it's six for one, half a dozen for the other. who living in this epoch has really seen him?

So far, IMHO, all the evidences on all fronts show Zhu respected Islam as a religion, like he respected Buddhist monks, but that does not make him a Muslim.

what are you talking about?

yes, in any organized city in China, most of the houses faces the south. Temples and any kind of religious building especially would follow this tradition, well, religiously.

You know, I just thought of something. With the world being confirmed as round, would it technically be OK for Muslims to pray toward the east when they should be praying towards the west and vice versa?

we had all these what would muslims do when they need to pray in another thread.

including questions such as what would muslims do on a plane? in space? at either poles of the earth? it doesn't just have to do with the direction to mecca but also the times in which they need to pray.

QUOTE
I'm sorry, but the amount of evidence you've presented isn't enough by a stretch of the imagination. We've already shown plenty of evidence that many Ming emperors were fervent Daoists. The evidence of that were far more abundant than your islamic hype.

good, i don't recall me saying all Ming emperor are Muslims? And I don't recall seeing evidence saying Zhu Yuan-Zhang was a Taoist either.

Zhu Yuan-Zhang also fought under a religious banner at the beginning. Though it certainly wasn't Buddhism or Muslim. In fact I don't even know how to categorize the religion besides some sort of Maitreya cult. The fact that 韓林兒 Han Lin Re called himself 救世明王 Bright King, Savior of the World is full of religious meanings. Just the fact the empire was named after that shows at first it was important symbol to the followers of Zhu Yuan-Zhang.

This post has been edited by Zuo Zongtang: Yesterday, 07:23 PM

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You guys are looking too much into the house facing direction thing.

House facing south seems to be a chinese culture rather than any religion.

Please also remember that buddhist in the olden days pray to the land of amitabha which is in the west.

I read somewhere that zhu yuan zhang was a buddhist monk.

There are many possibilities of the house facing a certain direction.

1. It is based on buddhist concept.

2. It is based on the five elements of fire, water, earth, metal, wood to match with his birthdate.

3. It could be just random.

4. It could be just facing a better scenery like lake, hills ie. good fung shui.

So don't read too much into this mecca thing.

 

You guys are looking too much into the house facing direction thing.

House facing south seems to be a chinese culture rather than any religion.

Please also remember that buddhist in the olden days pray to the land of amitabha which is in the west.

I read somewhere that zhu yuan zhang was a buddhist monk.

Buddhist do not pray to one direction.

the "old days" Buddhist don't pray. They recite Buddha's teachings.

Amitabha praying is a rather late development in Buddhism.

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You guys are looking too much into the house facing direction thing.

House facing south seems to be a chinese culture rather than any religion.

Please also remember that buddhist in the olden days pray to the land of amitabha which is in the west.

I read somewhere that zhu yuan zhang was a buddhist monk.

There are many possibilities of the house facing a certain direction.

1. It is based on buddhist concept.

2. It is based on the five elements of fire, water, earth, metal, wood to match with his birthdate.

3. It could be just random.

4. It could be just facing a better scenery like lake, hills ie. good fung shui.
So don't read too much into this mecca thing.

I agree 100%. It is so tenuous that it is not even worth the energy to discuss it.

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I agree 100%. It is so tenuous that it is not even worth the energy to discuss it.

For Chinese building to face south there is a scientific reason.

All the reason xng listed shows he does not fully understand Chinese architectures. Why buildings in China faces south is a very basic knowledge.

Central Plains is just a huge open area, with no significant mountains in east to west directions.

That means cold air travels directly from the arctic and sweeps over the entire plain.

Gate facing north would leave openings facing the cold air. Making it unbearable in the winter. Having gates facing east or west opens windows facing north.

Therefore most if not all traditional buildings are built with the gate facing south. That means it has a wall on the north side, which blocks cold air in the winter. This also creates the idea that the east wing is more important than the west wing. Because in the summer west wing gets the setting sun and becomes hotter. We can go in to all that in some other forum, but i doubt this is something new on the forum.

Only for some other reason, for example, religion, defenses would any Han Chinese historic buildings to be build with gate facing any direction other than south. Muslim temples for example, is built with gate facing east so at the other end the wall would face west.

buddhist temples are built facing the south.

And it's because of that nature that for a temple gate to face east built during that period of time is inconsistant with Buddhist temples.

The general concept is designed into the city

 

Take Tang dynasty's Changan for example, notice how the main entrance of the palaces gates only faces south.

 

temple in Xi-An notice the google earth compass

but then again, i have no way of knowing whether the article is telling the truth about the orientation of the Huang-Jue-Si. Now known as 龍興寺 in 滁州 Chu Zhou. Since the google's map of the area is very poor. and i can't find anything online either.

 

 

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 tenuous: stretched, thin, flimsy.

I am unconcerned with the reasons for the traditional orientation of Chinese structures. I am concerned about the tenuous nature of the connection being made between the orientation of a shrine and the religion of a person who once resided there, as well as the other tenuous connections being made on this thread in a most perplexingly persistent and grandly groansome campaign to hold this fringe fantasy of an Islamic Chinese dynasty together.

 

--------------------

 

I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

The thing that influences most chinese people the most is fung shui ie. how to bring fortune to the family and not religion.

Even the tombs of dead relatives are facing certain good fung shui. The buildings in hong kong are facing certain good fung shui etc.

The owner is not dumb enough to have the house/office facing south if he knows the fung shui there is not good just to satisfy the traditional belief that all houses faced south in olden china.

QUOTE
Buddhist do not pray to one direction.

the "old days" Buddhist don't pray. They recite Buddha's teachings.

Amitabha praying is a rather late development in Buddhism.

Amitabha vows was spoken by gautama buddha and it was in one of his sutra. It is NOT a late development in buddhism.

But a buddhist won't positioned his gate to face a certain direction just because of religion. He may pray/chant to the west where amitabha land is. And that is sufficient.

 

I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

The thing that influences most chinese people the most is fung shui ie. how to bring fortune to the family and not religion.

Even the tombs of dead relatives are facing certain good fung shui. The buildings in hong kong are facing certain good fung shui etc.

The owner is not dumb enough to have the house/office facing south if he knows the fung shui there is not good just to satisfy the traditional belief that all houses faced south in olden china.

Fung Shui itself was developed out of Taoism.

Ancient Chinese were very religious. Otherwise there wouldn't be something called "the mandate of the heaven". Unless you think that is something scientific.

Regardless, I have said the orientation of Chinese buildings is a scientific result, not religious.

Therefore for some shrine to be build against science and common knowledge would require some religious influence.

All mosque build in Chinese was on a east to west axis. So if the shrine Zhu Yuanzhang served as a young man was indeed build on a east to west axis, there is great chance that it was not a Buddhist temple.

QUOTE
Amitabha vows was spoken by gautama buddha and it was in one of his sutra. It is NOT a late development in buddhism.

But a buddhist won't positioned his gate to face a certain direction just because of religion. He may pray/chant to the west where amitabha land is. And that is sufficient.

i have never said "buddhist" temples would face a certain direction becuase of religion.

why you continue to twist my words is unimaginable to me.

you must have some really serious stake in this matter.

I said Muslim shrine would face east west axis in china for religious purposes.

While buddhist temples follows the Chinese tradition and are build on a north south axis.

QUOTE
Amitabha vows was spoken by gautama buddha and it was in one of his sutra. It is NOT a late development in buddhism.

But a buddhist won't positioned his gate to face a certain direction just because of religion. He may pray/chant to the west where amitabha land is. And that is sufficient.

what sutra?

the closest to original buddhism is the Agama teachings. The rest developed much later.

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QUOTE
With the world being confirmed as round, would it technically be OK for Muslims to pray toward the east when they should be praying towards the west and vice versa?

I don't really know. I just know that the direction is actually North according to modern day calculations and if I were to make a logical guess about the direction the gates should be facing east.

The best way to find out is to look at mosques contemporary to the Ming era.
From what I have read, Islamic scientists have estimated that the Earth is indeed a globe with a diameter of 10000++ km. We also have to understand that the re-discovery of the New World did not occur in Europe until 1492 and the maps did not come until 1500s. As for that pig killing business, my crux is this:
Pig sounds synonymous with the royal surname.

In any event, if historiography is in the hands of second rate pseudo-historians, I would say that 150 years down the line, they might make an assumption that the CCP are closet Muslims since they have are "very considerate of Muslim needs". Its the year of the Pig, and no Pig advertisements are shown on CCTV public broadcasts. That's a good evidence. Mmmmm...

QUOTE
I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

That's the strength of the Chinese psychology, the best relic of Confucianist thought.
Arguments about religion make people upset easily.
But if you're a true independent man, you'd laugh about it.

QUOTE
I said Muslim shrine would face east west axis in china for religious purposes.

You made the assumption that the gates open west, which is erroneous, and then you broadened your argument.
Fancy, that.
An Islamic Society has Islamic characteristics, foundations and events.
All of which are absent in Ming China.
I am more inclined to say that Ming China is a collaborative multi-ethnic state, just as it had been for most parts of Chinese history.

This post has been edited by Sephodwyrm: May 9 2007, 02:03 PM

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An Islamic Society has Islamic characteristics, foundations and events.
All of which are absent in Ming China.
I am more inclined to say that Ming China is a collaborative multi-ethnic state, just as it had been for most parts of Chinese history.

I am going to say this a final time.

If that house is build on muslim foundation, it would have muslim symbols like the moon or dome structure. And that is more important than facing any direction.

I don't know why people want to twist history by saying that zhu yuan zhang was a muslim when history has said he was a buddhist monk before becoming emperor.

 
     
 

In any event, if historiography is in the hands of second rate pseudo-historians, I would say that 150 years down the line, they might make an assumption that the CCP are closet Muslims since they have are "very considerate of Muslim needs". Its the year of the Pig, and no Pig advertisements are shown on CCTV public broadcasts. That's a good evidence. Mmmmm...

BINGO! 

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It's quite simple, really. If Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, we would know about it. If he were a non-Chinese Muslim, we would certainly know about it. The reality is -- and this is common knowledge among people who have studied Chinese history -- that he was a Han Chinese from eastern central China. The two provinces in this area, Anhui and Jiangsu, are 99% Han. There's no big conspiracy to hide his true Semu identity.

This post has been edited by Conan the destroyer: May 9 2007, 05:40 PM

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Yeah. Especially since China likes to boast about her great minorities.
We knew that Man Gui, Ma Gui, Zheng He and many others were minorities that achieved some form of recognition in the Ming dynasty.
And then we also know about Niu Jinxing, Lao Huihui (I forgot his name) that were the more notorious ones.

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but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east.

So if the shrine Zhu Yuanzhang served as a young man was indeed build on a east to west axis, there is great chance that it was not a Buddhist temple.

You are not even certain if the "shrine" was a mosque or not and you would think that Zhu Yuanzhang was plausibly a Muslim?

You built your assumptions on reductive analysis...

"it is great chance that it was not a Buddhist temple" (sic) and therefore it is a mosque? and therefore Zhu a Muslim? Quite far-fetched i reckoned, really.
 

There are two motivations that I see:
1. Muslims that want to feel good about themselves
2. People that view Muslims and Islam as second rate, and want to associate this second-ratedness to China.

I think there is another problem. Some people are willing to be fools for conspiracy theories and hidden histories, seeing themselves as being heroically counter-establishment if they support fringe revisionism, even if they do not believe in those movements themselves. 

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I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

The thing that influences most chinese people the most is fung shui ie. how to bring fortune to the family and not religion.

Even the tombs of dead relatives are facing certain good fung shui. The buildings in hong kong are facing certain good fung shui etc.

The owner is not dumb enough to have the house/office facing south if he knows the fung shui there is not good just to satisfy the traditional belief that all houses faced south in olden china.

I'm not sure if you're saying what I think you're saying, but it's not accurate to say that historical, traditional, ancient Chinese societies were particularly lacking in religiosity, and also inaccurate to say that the religiosity most Chinese in ancient time was concerned only with food. Modernity has a huge and devastating impact on the religiosity of the Chinese. Over 90% of Daoist priests were forced to become laymen some times after the Communists took over China. Buddhism suffered, though not to the same extent. Traditional Chinese thought was greatly criticized during Min Guo, early Communist rule, and especially during the Cultural Revolution (this critique on tradition, mostly that of Kongzi, all started arguably from Taiping Revolution). Although some strands of Chinese religious traditions remain strong overseas, it's questionable how much religious sophistication these overseas communities can maintain when the religious communities were in such demise in the mainland. It's hard to imagine that a religion like Dao Jiao can thrive when so much of its memory, so many of its sacred places, were under a rule that almost eliminated its existence. Many overseas adherents were also laborers who left China to look for work, and it's questionable how much religious knowledge they had beyond very basic folk elements.

In places like Hong Kong and Taiwan, there are some strong religious traditions of Dao Jiao and Buddhism. Hong Kong's Qing Zhong Guan is quite famous. Taiwan has no lack of Daoist masters. However, with the demise of Dao Jiao in Mainland, it's hard to imagine that these "refugee" Daoists can have a great impact in promoting "orthodox" and sophisticated Dao Jiao. Hence, the more "folk" stuff becomes more popular and well-known.

I've read that China is trying to bring back traditional cultures, so may be we'll see some restoration in the future.

The development of nationalism and market economy also "displaced" the importance of traditional Chinese religions to a great extent, but I won't go into details now.

The point is, though, it is a modern hindsight to say that Chinese are, as a people, less religious than others. Historically, a great portion of Chinese culture is religious culture. The Chinese Mahayana Buddhist canon fills about 80 big volumes. The Zheng Tong Daoist Canon fills about 60+ mid-sized volumes (less than the Mahayanist Canon, but still a LOT.) To feel the immensity and volume of these texts, go to a library that has them. For example, the East Asian library at UC Berkeley has both canons, and they are quite a sight. I don't think the Shifu Zangshu contains more works than each of these canon (may be about the same amount?), and the Shifu Zangshu is the main collection of the traditional Chinese literary works. It's a strange thing to say that the Chinese on the whole were particularly non-religious, when so many of their texts are religious texts.

A great deal of Chinese religious culture is precisely to move away from material gains, ironically enough. Look at the most well-known Dao Jiao and Chinese Buddhist texts -- they are often concerned with quietude of mind, trascending material dependence, ethics and morality, avoiding bad karma and punishment, etc. Not a great deal on material gains. (See, for example, Tai Shang Xuan Min Chao Ke and Tai Shang Xuan Min Wan Ke, i.e. the Morning and Evening Prayer/Meditation of Chuan Zhen priests, which is still in use today.)

One might raise the question that these things belong to more elitist sectors (scholars, monks, priests) and don't affect the general population, but such a contention is unlikely. Many popular movements in ancient China were religious, and they weren't only concerned with "praying for money and food." Material well-being is an important concern of Chinese folk religion, but it was not the only concern. The Daoist and Buddhist clergies have a great impact on the lives of the popular masses. Outside of Dao Jiao and Buddhism specifically: many communities revolve around the ancestral shrines, and religious devotion to ancestors isn't only about food and money; it is mostly about family and respect for ancestors/elders, and it's a bit absurd to say that "family and respect" cannot be religious values when family and respect for parents are almost universal values in the world's religions.

Not trying to nitpick your post. Just want to raise legitimate doubt about the hindsight myth about Chinese religious culture.

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just about 20 or 30 years ago, things such as 中原普渡 Ghosts day plus City Guardian inspection, 媽祖出巡 Ma-zu touring, Buddha's birthday, Guan-Gong's birthday were huge deals in Taiwan. It is still a huge deal today, but just 20 years ago, it was even more so then.

To say Chinese people weren't religious yet at the same point and laugh at Zhu Yuan-Zhang could have been a Muslim theory is hypocritical.

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In Quan Zhou, last names 郭、丁、夏、馬、金、葛、蒲、卜、哈、鐵 were most likely Muslim decendents. Doesn't have to mean they are still Muslim today.

Were there lack of Muslim Chinese during that Soong-Yuan-Ming period? Say, 蒲壽庚 or 蒲日和? Or Zheng He? Muslims had a bigger influence back then then people give them credit. Had 蒲壽庚 helped the Soong navy, could the "Mongolians" dominate over Soong navies?

Muslims had a greater influence back then in China than people tend to give them credit.

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Muslims had a greater influence back then in China than people tend to give them credit.

No one is discounting that.
In fact that was one of my fundamental reasoning why any Chinese dynasties would appear to be open to Muslims (and then be wrongly regarded as a Muslim dynasty).
Another thing is that most Muslims in China tend to be settled immigrants from Arabia, Persia and Central Asia. I do not know about the number of converts since any religion that wasn't affiliated with peasant uprising doesn't make it to the "fanatic" scale of mass conversions. If anything, the Muslims in China were sinified. They took Chinese surnames. It would be more fair for me to say that China naturalized Muslims into the imperial dynastic setting.

But characterizing the Ming dynasty as a Muslim dynasty, or Zhu as a Muslim, is stretching things a bit. If someone is a great achiever and is a Muslim minority we would know about it. Chinese would not mind a Muslim Emperor. But I believe most people on CHF has a more stringent evidence requirement to buy this > theory. I could also say that Wanli is a Christian since he allowed Matteo Ricci into his court and loved his clocks. That has another cartful of speculation and more solid evidence. But mainstream historians would say no.

Say history is a science. If you want to prove that the Ming dynasty is Muslim, you have to show aspects of Muslim-ness in the Ming dynasty. You can't say, yeah, Ming dynasty is a Muslim dynasty, but they hide their Muslim-ness because it would upset Chinese people.
That's complete BS.

This post has been edited by Sephodwyrm: May 10 2007, 11:20 AM

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I could also say that Wanli is a Christian since he allowed Matteo Ricci into his court and loved his clocks. That has another cartful of speculation and more solid evidence. But mainstream historians would say no.

Don't forget the Kangxi emperor. 

 

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Don't forget the Kangxi emperor.

LOL.
But I have to be Ming-centric here.

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Were there lack of Muslim Chinese during that Soong-Yuan-Ming period? Say, 蒲壽庚 or 蒲日和? Or Zheng He? Muslims had a bigger influence back then then people give them credit. Had 蒲壽庚 helped the Soong navy, could the "Mongolians" dominate over Soong navies?

Muslims had a greater influence back then in China than people tend to give them credit.

Chang Yuchun, Mu Ying, Hu Dahai, Tang He, Deng Yu, who fought alongside Zhu Yuanzhang, were Muslim Huihuis and ranked among the highest in the newly founded Ming dynasty, no one can deny.

Notwithstanding the historical contribution of China's Muslims' which is of greater influence than what general public would tend to think, it still wouldn't make the Ming founder a pseudo Muslim, let alone a real one.

 
    

it still wouldn't make the Ming founder a pseudo Muslim, let alone a real one.

I would play the devil's advocate here just to make fun of the other side.
But Zhu hated people killing Zhu (pigs)!!!!
That makes him a Muslim!!!!
ARGH!!!

Ok. I'm done.
That was brilliantly fun.

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But Zhu hated people killing Zhu (pigs)!!!!

That would make him a non-Muslim. And his surname sounds like "pig", that would surely make him a non-Muslim, even more!!!

Did those two words sound the same in Wu-Yu during early Ming dynasty already? The two words sounds different in Middle Chinese and before.

豬【唐韻】陟魚切，【集韻】【韻會】張如切

朱【唐韻】章俱切，【集韻】【韻會】鐘輸切，【正韻】專於切

This post has been edited by naruwan: May 11 2007, 04:33 AM

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Or maybe Zhu was a Muslim because he was a Manichean!
Lets draw more connections here...
You have to be Muslim to believe that Han Shantong is a descendant of the Song royalty.
Or that Liu Futong is the Maitreya (laughing) Buddha!
Woah!!!
And then outlaw the Manichean non-sense afterwards!
Double Woah!!!
And then ban words that sound synonymous with Seng, Zei and others.
And since Zhu had an accent you can't say Ze either.
Nor Sheng.
Triple woah!!!

Its funny when pseudo-historians take my jokes seriously.

no one is taking you seriously.

Zhu Yuan-Zhang did not ban pig killing.

but 明武宗 emperor Wu of Ming did. He claimed that it was because he was born on the year of the boar. But I doubt it had too much to do with the fact his last name sounds the same as the character pig. If that is the case, then every emperor should have done it.

 

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But Zhu hated people killing Zhu (pigs)!!!!

That would make him a non-Muslim. And his surname sounds like "pig", that would surely make him a non-Muslim, even more!!!

Some Muslim does have surname sounds like "pig" in ancient time and even now. Following are some evidence.

those web sites are for your reference:

http://xz5.2000y.net/mb/1/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=217883
http://www.nxnews.net/382/2004-11-18/[e-mail]
http://www.huizucn.com/xscx.htm
http://www.lz.zbjn.com/show.aspx?id=142&cid=51

二十一。问：朱姓没有回族的说法

答：安徽、河南朱姓回族人数不少。 朱元璋出生的地方，起义的地方安徽凤阳临淮关（古代壕州），那里的确是回民的聚居地，有一座清真古寺，凤阳县城里有很多朱姓回民，曾经号称朱半城， 但是那里现在已经没有他的后裔了。

朱延龄 1924年12月生，河南平舆人，河南省许昌市城内清真寺阿訇。他从1938年起学习阿拉伯语、古兰经》及***教文学。1951年至今连任许昌市城内清真寺阿訇。自1979年以来，任中国***教协会第四次会议代表，伊协第五、六、七届委员会委员，河南省***教协会第一、二、三、四届副会长，许昌市***教协会第一、二届会长，魏都区伊协会长。1984年参加中国朝觐团赴麦加朝觐。1999年9月在河南省第三次民族团结进步表彰大会上是受表彰的模范人物，同时在第三次全国民族团结进步表彰大会上，被国务院授于民族团结进步模范称号。为贯彻落实党的民族宗教政策，增进民族团结，促进经济发展，保持社会稳定和两个文明建设做出了积极贡献。

朱兆襄 高级工程师。回族，1944年8月生，辽宁黑山人。1967年毕业于东北工学院钢冶系冶金炉专业，现任甘肃省白银有色金属公司冶炼厂总工程师。

 

二十五。问：回族中的马姓 朱姓

答：马 (horse)
回族中的马姓最为多，故有着“十个回回九个马”之说。马姓主要来自祖名（经名）首音。如“我教之马，则多为阿拉伯人名之译音。如Muhammad,Malud,Malik,Maalnnud,等名；首音，均可以马字译也。”这也就是“以名为姓”的演化过程。在穆斯林当中，取尊贵的圣名穆罕默务为经名者最多，且圣名在中国历史上又曾被“译”（马罕默德、马哈迈德、马哈马、马合麻、马哈木、马哈默等），故姓马的也就多了。再有，穆萨等一些带有M字头的经名，在翻译时，也在向“马”靠近，如将其译成“马沙”等。马姓，除取祖名（经名）的首音外，还有许多是取自中后部的“马”。如乌马儿、亦思马因、哲马鲁丁、默里马合麻之后裔取中间的“马”，阿合马之后裔取后部的“马”。还有，即便是祖名（经名）中没有“马”，也因谐音关系，取了马姓。（《回回姓氏考》）这些“同姓不同宗”马姓，极大地丰富了回族马姓的来源。在回族马姓中，也汇入了一些兄弟民族的马姓。（《中国回族·河南回族》）回族中的马姓，也有相当一部分是赐姓。（《中国回族大词典》）马姓在中国回族中占比例较大，在国外一些国家和地区也有分布。

朱 (pig)
回族中的朱姓，为明朝皇帝赐给的国姓。“明初，皇帝赐姓有国姓、民姓之别，国姓是皇帝的朱姓”。（《回回姓氏考》）据《殊域周咨录》，明代哈密回回首领写以虎仙“与倒婿寅缘俱赐从朱姓，传升锦衣卫指挥，随驾南征。”明代大将沐英，“八岁时被朱元章收为义子，从朱姓。”山东有黑姓回回，其先世姓朱，后改为黑，因而在山东临青县回回朱黑两家不分。“朱姓回族主要分布在山东、安徽、江浙一带。

20 pictures close to real look of Zhu Yuan Zhang.

Some are official pictures,

some are from folks of his time.

.......

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It is very clear that some people here simply deny the fact that the emperor of Ming Dynasty associated with musilim. Therefore, they do or say anything to joke around.

Two related books published and several historians in mainland China and Taiwan achknowledged that emperors of Ming Dynasty were muslim. But some guys here are still talking about "thin evidence""sheer fabirication"

About Buddhist , Zhu did praise them , but at mean time , Zhu limit the development of Buddhist and enccourage the Musilim. For example, man under 40years old and woman under 50 are not allowed to be a Buddhist, each county can only have one temple for buddhist; for Muslim, Zhu build many temples for them. What a difference!

 

朱元璋在“皇觉寺”当“和尚”
《明史》卷一载：“太祖孤无所依，乃入皇觉寺为僧。”黎东方的《细说明朝》记载：“就这样，从阴历四月挨到九月，九月里他进了皇觉寺，受戒当和尚。” 但是，皇觉寺不是通常意义上的佛道教的寺庙，而是一座清真寺，朱元璋出家为“僧”实际上是在清真寺里做“海里凡”(经堂学生，西北地区称“满拉”)，皇觉寺这一名称则是朱元璋登基称帝后所赐的名称，意为皇帝在此寺中觉醒。皇觉寺位于凤阳城西门外，是一座坐西向东的寺院。根据中国传统，凡儒、佛、道教的寺庙、观均坐北向南，而中国的清真寺一律坐西朝东，因为中国穆斯林做礼拜时，须朝向位于中国西方的麦加天房，皇觉寺正好坐西朝东，且其建筑形式与我国清真寺建筑形式雷同。

朱元璋称帝后，对“僧”、“光”、“秃”等的同音字非常忌讳。尉氏（河南尉氏）县学教授许元，在奏章上有“体乾法坤，藻饰太平。”这两句话是千年以前的古文，但朱元璋却解释说：“法坤与‘发髡’同音，发髡是剃光了头，讽刺我当过和尚。藻饰与‘早失’同音，显然要我早失太平。”于是许无被处斩。杭州府学教授徐一夔的表文中有“光天之下”、“天生圣人”等语，朱元璋牵强附会，说文中的 “光”指光头，“生”是“僧”的谐音，徐是在借进呈表文骂他当过和尚。德安府训导吴宪的表文中有“望拜青门”之语，朱认为，“青门”是指和尚庙。这些犯了忌讳的，都被“诛其身而没其家”在朱元璋的淫威之下丧了命。 朱元璋为什么如此的忌讳和尚？ 原因很明显。

朱元璋对待佛教的态度。 按常理说朱元璋的“和尚”经历应该让他对佛教有种特别的好感，但是明朝的法律却极力限制佛教的发展：废除大量的佛教寺院，每县最多保留一座大观寺；逼迫大量的僧尼还俗，并规定男40岁以下，女50岁以下不得出家。 而对于当时势力并不太强大的伊斯兰教和回族却采取怀柔政策，敕建了很多清真寺。

朱元璋登基后敕建清真寺于南京、西安及滇、闽、粤等地区。南京清真寺赐名“净觉寺”落成后频临幸，并御制至圣《百字赞》赐清真寺，《百字赞》赞颂了真主和穆圣，并褒扬了伊斯兰，如果对伊斯兰没有感情和深刻的认识，写不出如此杰作。《百字赞》收录于清代刘智著作《天方至圣实录》内，其全文如下：“乾坤初始，天籍注名，传教大圣，降生西域，受授天经，三十部册，普化众生，亿兆君师，万圣领袖，协助天运，保庇国民，五时祈佑，默祝太平，存心真主，加志穷民，拯救患难，洞彻幽冥，超拔灵魂，脱离罪业，仁覆天下，道冠古今，降邪归一，教名清真，穆罕默德。至贵圣人。”另外还依据明武宗朱厚照（1506—1521在位）对各宗教的评论和《御制尊真主事诗》。武宗评论各宗教日：“儒者之学虽可以开物成物，而不足以穷神知化。佛老之学，似类穷神知化而不能复命归真。盖诸教之道各执一偏，唯清真认主之教，深源于正理，此所以乘万世与天壤久也。”《尊真主事诗》日：“一教玄玄诸教迷，其中奥妙少人知，佛是人修人是佛，不尊真主却尊谁？”

 

It is intriguing how "marginal" histories without much evidence can be taken as gospel.

It is very clear that some people here simply deny the fact that the emperor of Ming Dynasty associated with musilim. Therefore, they do or say anything to joke around.

Two related books published and several historians in mainland China and Taiwan achknowledged that emperors of Ming Dynasty were muslim. But some guys here are still talking about "thin evidence""sheer fabirication"

NO ONE deny the fact that Ming Dynasty did associate with Muslims, like Zhu Yuanzhang had in his command Muslim generals when conquering China, Admiral Zheng He and his voyages, Ming's emissaries with Malacca Sultanate etc. BUT waitaminute, Ming Dynasty's association with Muslim tantamount to Ming emperors were Muslims? Again, if the Ming Dynasty were Muslim (here you are not talking about a few blokes but the entire royal house) why were there not one clear piece of evidence but all your insinuations were "associations"? Why were the Ming emperors so clandestine about their faith that none of them publicly admit they were Muslims but need a few good souled historians to point out the truth for us by using reductive analysis and associative evidence?

Five hundred years from now, Singapore must surely be a Muslim state, their Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew must be a Muslim, why? he wore white clothes, he made Islam an official religion, he commissioned many mosques to be constructed throughout the country, he had relations with Islamic Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei...that is how a few academics told us so....

 
     

No one said anything about Zhu Yuanzhang not "associating with Muslim". And that reveals a lot about your debating standards, given how you seem to consider that central to your contention that he WAS a Muslim.

Zhu Yuanzhang's policies on Buddhist temples were based on an intention to consolidate and stabilize the Buddhist presence, not stifle it. And I'm pretty sure that the age limits applied to attaining clergy status, not being part of the laity.

Zhu Yuanzhang also made many moves recognizing and in favor of Daoism, including appointing Daoist priests, supporting Daoist court ceremonies (SRC), standardizing Daoist/Buddhist funeral ceremonies, and promoting Daoist syncretism, even writing a Dao De Jing commentary in 1375 (SRC).

Yeah, you can probably find books claiming him to be Muslim, but you can also find books promoting a lot of unlikely theories (ref: Voyages of the Pyramid Builders). Being published is no guarantee of being correct.

I'm really getting tired of this. For every piece of "evidence" your camp provides, we can provide stronger and many more pieces of counter-evidence. Attempts to pick and choose dots to connect with arguments from ignorance and uncertainty do not stand up to the plain facts that we do have. People who see Zhu Yuanzhang as Muslim are only looking at a narrow convenient view of the evidence and brushing aside the overwhelming facts against that theory. The only way this could happen is if they are Islamist revisionists or compulsive fringe advocates.