— 访谈MFSA创始人(双语翻译)
today we have a very distinguished guest
00:08
Jim Rutt
00:10
We will talk about freedom of speech
00:15
US college campuses lack thereof
00:20
We will have some good discussions I believe
00:22
So first of all without much do
00:25
Lydia can you just talk a little bit about your platform，YouTube channel for our new viewers
00:35
Happy New Year everybody Happy New Year Jim
00:41
I'm the founder of Moshang USA
00:43
So Moshang USA was founded in 2018. First we based on Wechat(equivalent to FB in Chinese) as a public blog
00:51
We grew very fast close to 300k followers within 3-yr
00:56
Unfortunately probably we talked too much about the individual liberty and freedom
01:03
WeChat shut us down last Sept
01:19
So as a victim of censorship freedom of speech is dear to our heart
01:26
We want to reserve and fight for freedom speech
01:51
Thank you Lydia
01:53
Jim let me try to introduce you, of course you can add
01:58
you are right now one of the founders of MIT free speech Alliance
02:06
We will talk a lot about MIT Free Speech Alliance
02:11
you graduated from MIT in 1975, that was the year when I was born
我2002年入学MIT 在那2年时光
I went to MIT in 2002. Only stayed two years there
02:28
so currently you're the host of host of Jim Roth Show podcast serials
02:35
I think the podcast examined cutting-edge thinking in science and technology of future of our economic，political and social system
02:44
so it's quite interesting
02:46
You had very impressive career
02:51
I noticed on the website
02:54
you were the past chairman of the Santa Fe Institute，a think tank
03:00
and you also were CEO of Network Solutions two decades ago
03:06
U were the first CTO I think the Chief Technology Officer for Thompson Reuters
03:14
I guess at that time maybe
03:18
there were more diverse views at Reuters
03:24
than now. But that's kind of my speculation
03:30
And you founded and led several technology companies
03:37
throughout your career
03:39
and you even produced the award-winning movie
03:42
and created a popular mobile game
03:45
Very impression
03:48
What you can‘t do, Jim?
03:50
I do all kinds of things
03:52
I follow when I think interesting
03:57
Sometime it leads to the cliff you are fall off sometime it leads to very good places
04:05
always being that ways
04:06
I follow my nose my nose knows to find what's interesting
04:11
near the cutting edge
04:13
probably relevant to this conversation
04:15
I was involved with building the online world
04:19
from the very earliest days
04:21
I went to work for a company called Source back 1980
04:27
that's long before you even thought of. You were 5 years old
04:31
Lydia you weren't even thought of yet probably.
04:34
I was born in 80s
04:37
Yeah exactly
04:39
at the Source in 1980
04:42
we had much of what's on the web today but
04:44
in text mode only 30 characters a second
04:48
$10 an hour
04:50
believe it or not but there was nothing like an else on Earth
04:54
quickly we had tens of thousands
04:58
and hundreds of thousands of customers
05:00
and we had mail we had chat
05:01
we had bulletin boards we had the earliest things
05:05
that you might point to as a predecessor to social media
05:07
we had newswires stock prices online shopping
05:10
We had the first Catholic confession done over and chat
05:14
with the approval of the Archbishop of Washington
05:17
I was actually involved with the online world
05:23
at least the consumer side of it
05:26
since the very beginning I've seen all the iterations
05:31
What's the internet is only the most recent one
05:34
probably not the last one
05:36
You are an pioneer in the internet technology
05:42
I remember I saw the Amazons first version was a text-only
05:48
Basically you saw the internet from a baby into a giant. Now the giant affects our life in a daily basis
05:58
Exactly I can think about 1980s By 1981 there were maybe a hundred thousands humans consumers not academic
06:09
online in the world
06:12
right a hundred thousands
06:16
Most of them are males about 96% male
06:20
at the time and
06:22
mostly technical people Etc
06:25
had to be fairly affluent because it was very very expensive
06:29
and that you say this tiny little seed
06:31
in some ways grown up to be this world we live in today
06:37
it's been very interesting and curious
06:39
but lots of twists and turns I will say
06:41
I think the beginning of internet had connections to MIT right
06:46
through some military research of funding
06:50
Yeah there was a DARPA net originally
06:53
Bob Kahn and who is the other dude(Vint Cerf)
06:58
2 guys were basically researchers created the thing
07:01
It was clever never intended for commercial use
07:06
it was designed to be a survivable network in case of nuclear war
07:11
because it had no Center that makes the internet
07:16
different is that if any bits of it survived
07:19
the routers can stitch themselves back together
07:22
truth was not a good choice to build a commercial Network on
07:26
for a number of reasons but
07:28
for other reasons which I can talk about for hours
07:32
it did win during that critical period around 1990
07:35
when there were still alternatives out there
07:38
and we can have internet at least through this era
07:44
that's the platform on which all these other things are growing
07:47
including Lydia's all her various platforms
07:52
That's an example of taking advantage of all these affordances
07:56
network world offers to us
07:58
Great definitely we found the right person
08:01
since you are among the first dozens of people
08:05
who are building and leading the internet
08:07
every unfair treatment from internet we got
08:10
we will come to you for help
08:13
Okay since we got connected through MIT Free Speech Alliance
08:18
Could you tell us more about this organization
08:21
How did you get involved with MIT free speech Alliance
08:27
yes MIT free speech Alliance
08:29
a group now of many hundreds of
08:33
MIT alums student-faculty researchers and
08:37
friends of MIT affiliate with the idea of
08:39
we need more free speech more viewpoint diversity
08:45
and free inquiry at MIT
08:47
but it's very recent it only
08:49
started in late October 2021
08:53
myself and two friends of mine
08:57
from MIT were involved in an email exchange just
09:00
things in general, right
09:02
suddenly the Dorian Abbott Affair happened
09:07
MIT disinvited the distinguished geophysicist from giving a talk
09:14
about exoplanet atmospheres the atmospheres of
09:17
planets around other stars than our own
09:20
very technical talk and
09:23
but he had published an essay
09:28
he had another person(Prof. Ivan, Stanford) published an assay
09:31
in Newsweek magazine
09:33
General circulation news magazine the United States
09:36
where he had challenged the idea of
09:40
diversity equity and inclusion (DEI)
09:44
and it proposed an alternative called
09:46
Merit Fairness and Equality
09:48
and as happens in our world today
09:52
all too often in my opinion a Twitter mob fromed
09:54
wow we get having anybody talking against
09:58
diversity equity & inclusion (DEI)
10:00
even they have a perfectly reasonable alternative proposal
10:03
so we are going to demand MIT
disinvite this person even though he is not a MIT employee
10:10
had no impact got MIT policy
10:12
Was there a strict scientific model
10:15
The twitter mob raised a whole bunch of stink
10:18
in our view very foolishly
10:21
MIT leadership succumbed to the Mob
10:25
disinvited this distinguished scientist
10:28
from giving his talk and
10:30
so the three of us were emailing around
10:36
about issues about MIT
10:38
anyway some around DEI some around other thing
10:42
and we said "Damn it!"
10:44
情况太不对
This is not right
So let's reach out to some of our friends and see if
10:49
we can pull some people together
10:51
quickly we had a few dozen then
10:56
we came across the Americans of the alumni free-speech Alliance
10:58
AFSA turned out that
11:02
five other universities in United States
11:06
already established free speech organizations
11:10
Cornell Washington and Lee Princeton
11:13
University of Virginia and Davison
11:16
were the first five and
11:18
then we said okay so
11:21
去了解了一下他们在做什么
we kind of look what they were doing and you know
like many entrepreneurs over there were over the years
11:27
we just stole some good ideas and and added some of our own
11:31
and did something similar and something different
11:34
quickly we sparked off MIT free speech Alliance
11:37
and it is a standard alone legal entity
11:42
not officially affiliated with MIT
11:45
It's now filed for 501(c)3 status
11:49
so we can actually accept today tax-deductible contributions
11:53
and has a number of committees that
11:57
are in operation working on various projects
12:01
increase the salience of and frankly pressure
12:07
the administration about protecting Free Speech
12:12
free inquiry and particularly Viewpoint diversity on campus
12:17
Yeah that's very important
12:19
and our website for anyone wants to check it out
12:24
12:27
Yeah so as I know
12:31
you don't have to be a MIT graduate or hold a degree from MIT
12:35
you can free to join us
12:37
and sign as a member to join this course, right
12:40
correct and you'll get our weekly email newsletter
12:46
tell you what's going on pointing you to events
12:49
MIT free-speech Alliance but also
12:53
other people doing work in the Free Speech area
12:56
that's been very gratifying to find so many allies
12:59
people like FIRE and heterodox Academy
13:04
and other folks so we've become very rapidly part of
13:07
the wider ecosystem around free speech free inquiry and viewpoint diversity
13:13
Yeah talking about that Jim
13:16
I'm just wondering do you see this kind of
13:21
fight back to protect Free Speech now
13:24
it's a movement getting some momentum
13:29
13:33
You talk about different organizations different universities
13:36
start to you know to make their invoice
13:39
you know this organization starts to make their voices heard
13:45
the Alumni Free Speech Association which we are now
13:47
formally a member as of a couple of weeks ago
13:50
They tell us that they have over 100 University groups
13:54
who they're working with to help
13:57
that we provide some
14:00
materials and say hey feel free to distribute these
14:03
to people look at our corporate bylaws
14:06
look at their committee structure etcetera
14:08
there was five now
14:12
I believe there's 15 and hopefully
14:14
到夏天会超过100所
by the summer will be over 100
different groups that are formed up around
14:19
this mission at different university
14:21
so yeah it's it's certainly
14:22
A big growth area
14:27
I think response probably late in the day
14:30
actually to the decay of free speech
14:35
on America's leading University campuses
14:38
I will say I'm and I was sort of aware of it
14:40
for a while
14:42
but when I've actually dug in
14:44
and seen how bad it's gotten on campuses today
14:47
it's shocking
14:48
I mean it's like Wow
14:50
We frankly should have done this 5 years ago
14:54
But better later than no at all
14:56
Right, better started 10 years ago
14:58
that's very encouraging to see it
15:03
这个行动 不过我理解
this movement but I understand
from our observation it takes some courage
15:10
for people to speak up against the
15:12
conformity type of thinking
15:20
because people in academia care about their career
15:24
so do people in business but what I see now
15:26
in many many different fronts like
15:31
academia entertainment media
15:35
big corporations there is a
15:38
kind of increasing
15:42
level of conformity you know
15:46
that they want everybody to think the same
15:49
support the same set of ideas
15:51
do you agree this is a right observation
15:58
also from your perspective because you
16:01
graduated in the 70s
16:02
I think you and the other founder Tom
16:06
mentioned a little bit at that time
16:08
there was a lot of different opinions on campus but
16:10
there was more free debates can you talk about this
16:13
那个现象和你的观察
kind of phenomena also what did you see
what has changed? Oho completely
16:18
1971
16:23
When I showed up in MIT campus
16:25
it was a riot of free speech
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you can say anything, right
16:30
and anything at all
16:32
Keep in mind this was the end of traditionalism in America
16:36
You know say 1969
16:38
Women were not allowed to
16:41
spend the night at men's college dorms
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By 1971
16:45
WTH smoking weed drinking beers
16:49
protesting Vietnam War
16:53
protesting... supporting the Vietnam War
16:55
you can say anything
16:57
那是左右中都有深刻价值观的时代
it was a very deep value of the left right center particularly
Particularly at elite universities
17:05
freedom of speech was the most important of all values
17:09
ironically enough the Berkeley Free Speech movement of 1964
17:16
was where this really got started
17:20
Berkeley California Berkeley University
17:22
now one of the most conformists
17:24
speech suppressing environment in America
17:30
but the idea of radical free speech on college campuses
17:34
really started there and
17:36
to go from this was by all parties who hated each other right
17:42
but they all agreed that Free Speech
17:45
must be protected at all costs
17:47
other than the Communists
17:49
we had a small number of Communists
17:51
They were absolutely about suppressing Free Speech but
17:55
17:57
17:59
and the fact that they were against Free Speech made them
18:03
non-credible with everybody else
18:05
Left and right they all hated the communists
18:07
And now we are going to point out a staggering
18:12
confirmative
18:15
the biggest eye-opener for me so far
18:17
in my learning about what's really going on
18:20
is that the MIT faculty
18:23
had a series of meetings to discuss
18:27
the Abbott Affair and all the things came around
18:31
18:35
in a confidential poll of about 150 160
18:42
MIT faculty members
18:44
over half 50% plus
18:48
said on an everyday basis
18:51
They felt like their ability to express themselves
18:54
frankly and clear uninhibitedly was being suppressed
18:59
50% at MIT
19:01
that's staggering
19:03
Then when they were asked in the current broader social environment
19:08
what degree do believe yours and your colleagues ability
19:12
speak freely is under assault
19:15
the number was almost 80%
19:18
and this is at MIT the place of intellectual rigors, right
19:23
where I would have thought
19:24
would have been the last place to fall for the stuff
19:27
but here we are testimony under
19:30
private confidential vote
19:32
50% feel they're being suppressed everyday
19:35
and 80% feel that the environment is generally
19:38
threatening and suppressive
19:40
are people honestly and fully expressing themselves
19:44
That's staggering
19:46
这让人好吃惊
It‘s surprised to me
Because MIT is very strong at STEM field
19:55
For STEM talents you are
19:58
based on facts and numbers, data
20:01
not based on stories
20:03
If our STEM elite universities
20:07
are been trapping in strong censorship
20:12
even self censorship
20:13
That could be a huge problem in future of this country
20:17
End of the world I mean
20:20
the essence of science
20:23
is open and rigorous inquiry
20:25
right we go we do experiments we gather data
20:30
we argue with each other
20:31
you never seen arguments quite like two physicists
20:34
having an argument they go at each other right
20:37
they challenged each other
20:38
but if some ideas become holy they can't be challenged
20:43
or some authorities
20:46
must be quoted because they
20:49
They aligned with some political factions
20:52
or some ethic minorities or something
20:55
That’ll be if not quite the death
20:58
the very substantial damage to science
21:02
and that will hold back all of humanity
21:05
It'll certainly hurt those countries
21:08
where they're most infected
21:10
science is a gift of workers to the world, right
21:13
you create scientific facts and value
21:16
everyone in the world can soon take advantage of that
21:20
so agree that your sub optimizing science
21:22
you're cheating the human race out of its ability to move forward
21:26
这是非常非常糟糕的事
this is very very bad stuff
21:28
Yeah I agree
21:30
Especially we feel nowadays students are less
21:33
open to debates of all sides
21:36
We feel they have probably already being fed up
21:40
as so-called brainwashed
21:42
Do you think there is any remedy to rescue those students?
21:47
To make them back to support more free speech
21:50
Yup absolutely you are right
21:53
probably the ones that been beaten down the most
21:57
are the students, right
21:59
We don't have the data yet for
22:01
FIRE is done some surveys on campus come up
22:04
with staggering numbers in the 60 and 70% range
22:07
We're trying to commission a study on MIT campus
22:11
see what the students are
22:13
interestingly what we can tell
22:17
the real problem for students isn't so much active censorship
22:21
It is self-censorship
22:23
and one of things we've now
22:27
work on this and realize how much self-censorship
22:32
most important issue picked for students
22:35
we're going to be coming out with a whole series of
22:38
ideas about the idea that break out of the self-censorship closet
22:43
you know you owe it to humanity you owe it to yourself
22:46
we actually think that the number of even undergraduates
22:51
who fully are bought into this idea of censorship
22:54
and destroying viewpoint diversity
22:57
is still less than half of
23:00
the majority are probably still oppose
23:02
But they just intimidated and if they will speak up
23:04
and have other people will support them
23:06
we think there's a chance for them to be a
23:09
groundswell of fact
23:12
what people say "we are not free to those A-hole
23:15
on twitter say", right
23:17
We have our views and
23:19
we are Americans we have the right to say it
23:21
We have some allies will come to our aid
23:25
some people try to beat up on us
23:28
that's broad streak of what we‘ve seen going forward
23:34
we already have some interest from some students
23:37
starting an on-campus organization
23:39
Very hopeful that we will increase our number of students
23:43
substantially in the coming six months
23:45
there‘ll be activities on campus to allow people
23:49
who believe in free speech to come together
23:50
say what they want to say
23:52
and get away with it
23:54
we also are looking to arrange some on-campus
23:59
debates on controversial issues
24:01
Some of them will be in the normal right left axis
24:07
24:09
We think it's very important to model the idea
24:12
that all speakers who were speaking in good faith
24:15
are using good argumentation
24:20
and speaking logically have the right to
24:22
在校园里提出自己的观点
24:24
If you disagree with somebody
24:26
disprove them my friends
24:28
don't say they cannot speak
24:30
so that's another one of our projects
24:33
that's in the planning stages
24:36
is to schedule and support finance
24:39
some controversial debates on campus
I was born at the end of the Culture Revolution
25:11
25:25
you know if something cannot be debated
25:29
the country can go into very bad direction
25:33
I think my theory now is
25:37
in this country many young people they haven't experienced
25:41
much hardship they haven't been really suppressed by anything
25:47
but they kind of like... To me use a harsh word
25:50
a little bit 'empty' you know they try to
25:52
hold on to something they think really noble
25:54
To they some speech is better than others
25:58
They think they want to, you know
26:01
suppress the bad speech
26:04
but I don't think they really have the wisdom
26:08
to judge what is good what is bad
26:10
what is good has to be decided by
26:13
as you said through vigorous debate
26:14
to hear all the sides
26:16
right now I feel the problem is
26:19
there is free speech for some people but not for
26:22
others if you have certain point of views
26:25
That's really a problem
26:28
Yeah I do think that some of this is that you say
26:32
We've had free speech in America since
26:34
since 1971 for sure but
26:39
at least starting to roll by 1964
26:41
We had nominal Free Speech before that
26:44
but there was a lot of informal censorship going on
26:46
in different directions, right
26:49
But for last 50 years
26:51
and more we've had true free speech
26:53
and so unfortunately a lot of folks
26:56
don't understand how rare and valuable that is
26:59
in the history of the world
27:00
there haven't been very many times in human history
27:04
were you could literally say what you thought
27:06
you didn't worry about offending a king or a church
27:11
or a landlord or a warlord
27:15
We look at human history completely covered with
27:19
various authorities of different sorts
27:22
that are trying to demand conformity
27:23
in thinking and this bubble
27:27
we've had in the West for the last fifty or sixty years
27:29
is remarkably unusual in human history
27:34
remarkably valuable
27:36
Unfortunate people don't remember the the previous period
27:40
or don't have experience with
27:43
Talk to so many people I found an amazing number particularly
27:46
people from China or Cuba or Venezuela
27:50
Poland or Russia
27:52
who actually experienced totalitarianism
27:55
They are stronger supporters of free speech
27:59
than any current American coz they know
28:02
what is like to not have free speech
28:05
Exactly I mean we are the victim of censorship
28:09
even now we still live in a virtual border town
28:13
we have to face those people who
28:16
压制我们说话的人
28:18
It's very difficult for Chinese Americans living in the US
28:22
to fully express all what we want to say
28:26
觉得美国孩子们
I think America's kids
need to understand that the real authoritarianism
28:32
is much stronger than what they thought
28:34
Some of them just use a strawman as enemy
28:39
They do not have experiences with a real strong enemy
28:43
Any if we say something too much
28:47
It could danger our own safety and our family in China
28:51
That's very different situation
28:55
I just hope those very ideological kids can understand that
28:58
Then they will appreciate America
29:00
how freedom of speech is such a gift to the country
29:04
That's why I love reaching out to immigrants
29:08
enter the United States as part of this work
29:10
cause they can testify from real experience
29:13
that us Americans really can't
29:16
we have our theories we have our ideas
29:18
but y'all actually felt the boot on your face
29:21
你们切实感受到不同
you can speak to just how different it is
29:25
to live in a place where you can't speak
29:28
even though as you said you have family in China
29:30
They still string upon you
29:31
but not in the same way that
29:40
Yeah cherish your right before you lose it
29:43
Hope don't loss it
29:46
The other thing as I mention
29:49
there are a fewer communists back there in 1970s
29:51
there are more now
29:53
They are imbedded in the universities
29:55
Probably 3-5% Americans may
30:01
look favorably upon Marxism
30:05
In American humanity department
30:08
it may be half
30:10
In the English Dept at elite universities
30:12
maybe 50% of people call themselves Marxists
30:15
what do they call the lounge chair Marxist strike
30:20
30:23
read the journals and pronounce them Marxism
30:25
30:28
if they were actually in a Marxist country
30:30
they may be the first ones to be thrown in the camps
30:33
but there is unfortunately a significant amount of Marxist ideology
30:40
behind some of the suppression of free speech
30:44
just as in 1970 the small percentage of
30:46
马克思主义者想压制言论自由
who wanted suppress Free Speech were mostly Marxists
by no means all today
30:52
so I'm not trying to say that all people who
30:54
oppose to free speech in America
30:56
are Marxists
30:57
but many of the ideological support
31:01
这个范围的事尤其是所谓的警醒领域
for things in this area particularly the so-called woke area
comes from the Frankfurt School
31:08
which is essentially a German form of Marxism
31:13
that is and in its descendants
31:16
have significant footprint
31:18
Particularly in humanities and social science departments
31:21
in the US higher education
31:24
Yeah those you know humanity departments
31:31
they are in my opinion like we say use the term "progressive"
31:36
we have to learn Marxism
31:40
当我在中国上中学时候
in China when I was in middle school
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